Pfalz D.XII fuselage colors?

[BLOWHARD]

I've read everything I can find on the subject but I'm still confused about a few things.
Silbergrau? I had thought I had read something somewhere that stated this wasn't the case, that they were painted gray. But all I can find now says the earlier planes had silver fuselages like the D.III and D.IIIa. I can find ANY photo where the fuselages shown in photos looks even remotely like the earlier Silbergrau. So, am I crazy or was another color used?
The lower photo on page 9 of the Windsock Datafili isn't silver is it?
About the later camouflage colors, I've got both the Datafile and Colin Ower's article from Windsock Vol2 No4. Is it true that there are 2 known color combinations; purple/gray/dark green/medium green and brown/dark green/medium green?
The Datafile calls out a number of colors, including some in Federal Standard. The dark green is mentioned to be FS34148. Is that correct? It more like a medium green-ish blue-gray instead of dark green. I don't have a Methuen handbook.

[BLOWHARD]

AHA! I knew I read it somewhere! But the search function here is difficult at best

Dan-San, save your typing fingers unless you've got more to add-

Commencing at least with the Pfalz D.VIII, Pfalz painted the fuselage and fin exterior surfaces with a light to medium grey paint. This scheme continued with the early production of the Pfalz D.XII in the D.1350? to 1549/18. It is my opinion that the interiors of the fuselage were painted the same bluish-grey.
Commencing with the second order, serial number Pfalz D.XII D.2400/18 and all subsequent serial numbers,including the Pfalz D.XV, the fuselage exterior were camouflage in four colors of purple, bluish-grey, dark green, light green. The grey being the base color of the early production D.XII machines. The fuselage interiors were painted grey, tinged blue. (photos in my collection of panel from D.XII fuselage.) There is no evidence to support the use of brown in the Pfalz D.XII and D.XV aircraft camouflage schemes.
Blue skies,
Dan

From this post-
http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/ai...r-colours.html

ah

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Blowhard:
I wish I could type with all my fingers. The truth of the matter is, I use my index finger on my right hand for the letters and the index finger on my left hand for the shift key.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[BLOWHARD]

Just like I do Dan-San, or almost, I use my right hand index finger almost exclusively. But sometimes I use my right hand thumb only to hit the shift button
But, are you dyslexic? I'm terribly so! So much that sometimes fining a letter on the keyboard is impossible!
Thanks anyway, even though your reply was already typed and in stock here

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Blowhard:
I never learned to type in school. I was too busy with a college course in high school. In my working life, I either drafted my letter or dictated them to my secratary. Sometimes I use my right thumb on the space bar.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[Colin A Owers]

When Bob Waugh examined the Pfalz D.XII 2600/18 in the AWM, the paint was just flakes remaining on the fuselage. It is a shame that he has lost his paint samples, but he described the colours on his sketch as they were then, probably circa 1950. He lent me a small chip from the cowl and it was brown.

I presented the evidence as then known and it is up to each to make their own minds up.

The best source for the colours of the D.XII is still the British report on the crashed example.

Colin A Owers

[BLOWHARD]

Colin, thank you for the reply! I've been reading your Windsock article heavily

First Dan-San, and now Colin Owers, I'm in the presence of WW1 Aero research royalty!!! (the internet is a marvel)

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Colin:I was aware of Bob Waugh's research on the D.XII aircraft and colors. While he and I were working on the Albatros D.Va, he and I discussed the Pfalz D.XII.* I am troubled by the fuselage colors Bob sent me,* the fuselage 0n D.XII 2600/18, had brown in place of the purple and struts being brown and the upper surface of the top wing was olive green.* I have wondered if the brown was a factory finish or some individual's finish.* All the descriptions I have is the purple, bluish grey, dark green, light green,then purple again at the rear of the fuselage. I have wondered has D.XII 2600/18 been refinished at sometime in its past?* Maybe you have some inputs to clarify my questions? See you at the next meeting, wherever it may be.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

['14-'18aviationcollector]

Hi everyone,

This is only my second post on this site, but I do have some information to contribute to this discussion.

I live in Canberra, not far from Colin Owers and have had many discussions with Colin, Bob Waugh and others about the Pfalz and Albatros as captured. Colin and Bob have by far been the most relaiable, useful, knowledgeable and helpful in my research efforts on these two aeroplanes.

I worked on the the restoration of the Australian War Memorial's DH9 in the mid to late 1980's through to the early 1990's, and many of the people involved with the DH9 restoration were also involved with the restoration of the Pfalz D.XII in the mid to late 1960's through to the early 1970's if I am not mistaken. I talked to most of them extensively about the Pfalz.

Dan: I am aware of all the issues you have discussed, and I think I can help, at least to a degree. I believe the brown to be a re paint, probably circa early to mid 1960's. I believe it was re painted at about the same time as the upper surfaces of the lower wings were crudely painted in what looks like house paint. Note that as Colin has correctly stated, "the [fuselage] paint was just flakes remaining on the fuselage". I have seen photos, and it was incredibly sparse. Perhaps only 5% or 10% of the original fuselage paint remained. The fact that the upper surfaces of the lower and top wings, front of fuselage, fin and possibly rudder (I am relying on my memory), serial number and all fuselage stencils were effectively complete suggests the afforementioned parts have been re painted. I have evidence to suggest that the serial number may even be slightly incorrect (by which I mean only one digit is possibly incorrect), but that is another story.

I agree, the front of the fuselage probably was purple, and I hope that evidence to prove or dis prove this will surface during the current restoration being caried out on this aeroplane. I do not have a definitive opinion of the colour for the struts, but from memory Bob told me they were originally light grey. I have been told that the dark green on the top surface of the top wing, which ironically and incidentally I believe may be PC10 was applied by the allies, presumably the Australians. I do not know if the dark green / brown was applied during the First World War or subsequent to it, but I am sure I was told it was applied as a result of new fabric being applied to the forward half of the upper surface of the top wing when the Pfalz was overturned during landing. The new fabric was plain (by which I mean it was not lozenge), was not stitched to the wings and had pinked edge tapes. The pinked edge tapes would suggest the fabric and the dark green paint were applied post WW1, and the lack of stitching suggests strictly static display. I am sure that in the last 24 hours I have seen a reference to this damage being as the result of something being dropped on the wings, so I will welcome any clarification. From memory, the fabric was removed from the port wing tip to about half way along the starboard wing panel, and forward of the main spar, which is more or less in the centre of the chord.

Colin: I do not mean to interfere with any answer you might give, and I hope my input has been useful. I have also seen the British report on the crashed Pfalz D.XII which I would have obtained a copy of from yourself or Bob (although I have not been able to readily locate it for some time) and agree, it is an excellent source of information which is almost undoubtedly one of the best references for Pfalz D.XII fuselage colours. I hope there is still some original paint remaining on the four (if my memory serves me correctly) original Pfalz D.XII's remaining, and that it is not ever removed! Alan Fraser informed me that the original fuselage fabric was removed during the crude late 1960's restoration. There are however a very few colour photographs in existence which provide reasonable evidence, and there will undoubtedly be some original paint to be found on some of the fuselage fittings, particulaly towards the front of the fuselage. I have a lot more to contribute, and will look forward to any comments on the information I have provided.

[BLOWHARD]

Thanks for the additions Aviationcollector! Nice info.
One thing I had always wondered about was the nature of the forward purple color and whether it could be a more red-ish purple than commonly stated. This is just conjecture on my part but a red-purple, especially a muddy red-purple could easily be mistakenly called brown. It could account for the mention of brown and possibly the reason that brown was used in the restoration.
Of course based on the above info it's more likely something ulled out of a hat" during an after the war repaint.