French Nieuport 11 fighters

[jastaflieger]

I am in the process of researching an article concerning Jean Navarre with the very able assistance of his nephew Andre, and Bruno Couplez. Currently putting together some information from a lengthy article from the 1980's, actually Bruno is translating it at this time.

But i have a few general questions regards lewis gun on the Nie11 that Navarre would have flown:
it seems there was a gun mounted on the top wing, but in photos i do not see a cable running down from the gun to the cockpit: how was the gun fired and i do not see a Foster mount, so could the gun be lowered in oreder to be reloaded, did the French have only 48 rounds/ drum?
it seems the red fuselaged Nie11 that navarre flew had its lewis gun mounted on the fuselage to fire through the propellor, i think the sych mechanism was an Aldin, not sure of that name.
Looking for some direction in these details , so i get it right in the article, many thanks for the help!!
Jim Wilberg
PS: i actually view this as part 2, since i already had an article on Navarre in Cross an dCockade, vol 20/ no4/winter 1979::: but i was 16y/o then and so i think/ hope to do a little better this time around

[Kirk R. Lowry]

Jim, bonjour!

Bien sûr, I placed the note in Over the Front, by Franks and Bailey, under Navarre by the biography and list of victories: See "Jean Navarre: The Eagle of Verdun" by Jim Wilberg, C'n'C Volume 20, Number 4, p. 351 - p. 358.

Armament is not a subject with which I have familiarity but, in respect of the Nieuport 11 with the Lewis gun mounted on the fuselage that was flown by Navarre it may be assumed that the Alkan synchronization system was used.

I will search through the tomes to find details, but, hope that someone with a greater knowledge of the subject provides some data to you.

Salut!
Kirk

[Kirk R. Lowry]

Re-bonjour Jim

Yes, some Nieuport aircraft were fit with the Alkan system (apparently also referred to as the Alkan-Hamy gear) which incorporated a fixed Lewis gun on the forward fuselage synchronized by an engine controlled cam. The device was designed by a mechanic of the name Alkan serving with MS 12. As with other contemporary systems reliability was a concern and, apparently, problems and accidents encountered led the R.F.C. to favor the Foster mounting with the weapon firing over the propeller.

Salut!
Kirk

[jastaflieger]

Kirk,
thank you for your reply and i appreciate your help. I am still wondering though, with the French Nie11, how did the pilot re-load the Lewis gun, and i assume there must have been some cable device::
i have read in several places that navarre stood up in his aircraft in oreder to fire his weapon, ie the wing- mounted Lewis gun: i just do not see this happening and so i am wondering if perhaps this " legend" got started because he had to stand in order to re-load his weapon, a difficult task in itself.
Plus, to face the Fokker EIII, or a German two-seater with the Parabellum both of which had 500 rounds without re-loading in a dogfight took just that much more courage and tenacity!
Looking for help from the forum as to the " workings " of the French wing-mounted Lewis guns in late 1916!
thanks in advance
jim wilberg

[Froggy]

Hello Jim, bonjour Kirk

The site of André Navarre gives a partial reply to your question but
....in English

The nieuport 11 "bébé" was equipped with a machine gun, (lewis or hotchkiss)
with a round (drum) magazine,on upper wing
There was not a system as it was the case for Se5a allowing the pilot to reload the machine gun while keeping sitting into the cockpit . With Nieuport 11 it was necessary for the pilot to stand up,holding the stick between the knees, and change the drum.
(that was a problem for the hotchkiss with only 47 cartridges in a magazine)
But no problem for firing -the trigger was operated by a cable connecting the machine gun to the pilot.
Navarre was the only pilot to have to his disposal a Nieuport 11 with a synchronized machine gun , mounted in front of the fuselage , and able to shoot through the field of the airscrew.It was a Vickers-Berthier model 1915 of 7 mm with a drum magazines.It was as say Kirk the alkan (sergeant Alkan)system which was in use, and this system is STILL IN USE IN FRENCH AVIATION for its modern aircrafts (with some improvements , i suppose...)
I think that the Nieuport 11 with this system was the entirely red painted plane he flew (serial number 872)

André Navarre site here: Ses avions

(navarre used Nieuport 11 from end of 1915 until may 1916.At verdun he had at his diposal at least three "babies" .The first one ,N376 or may be 576,with a three colour fuselage, second one entirely in red (N830) and a third one with
a three colour pennant painted on the fuse , with an unknown serial number
Nieuport 11 & 16 )


Cordialement
Bruno

Here is an original beautiful Nieuport given by the Nieuport cie in 1919 and recovered in 1950 and 1976 in the Commandant De Rose personal markings(at le bourget in France) -The cable attached to the trigger can easily be seen.

[jastaflieger]

Dear Bruno,
many thanks for your reply, and as always for your translation skills. I can only imagine navarre knowing he has 48 bullets until re-loading, with his adversaries having 500 rounds at their disposal.
I really could not see navarre standing in the cockpit to pull the trigger!

[hoodoo]

I note the Ne 11 in the photograph in this thread has horizon blue (or its equivalent) in it center roundel and tail flash. Recently another thread, I beleive, has stated the French used a darker blue for roundels until 1918. Could this musuem rendition be in error?

[Froggy]

Originally Posted by hoodoo

I note the Ne 11 in the photograph in this thread has horizon blue (or its equivalent) in it center roundel and tail flash. Recently another thread, I beleive, has stated the French used a darker blue for roundels until 1918. Could this musuem rendition be in error?

Hello Hoodoo

I had never heard that!
The Blue/White/red of French roundels(cocardes) are the same since the beginning of French aeronautic until now and never changed
(The blue of GB or AEF were darker)
The museum rendition is good from my point of view

Cordialement
Bruno

[Kacey]

I was trying to come up with the number of Fokker E-type that were shot-down by Nieuport 11's and visa-versa.

Is there some way to come up with such a number?

KC

[Taz]

KC- That would take a lot of digging and you should add N.16 aircraft to the mix. Lots of N.11s were updated to N.16 specs at the Escadrille level by changing out the LeRhône 9C for a LeRhône 9J, but not well documented. The headrest of the N.16 would be missing, but otherwise very similar. Victor Chapman in a N.16 was shot down by Kurt Wintgens in a Fokker E.IV on 23 June 1916 to start your long road.

Taz
Terry Phillips