Was Manfred worthy of his reputation

[LegendaryLoewenhardt]

Talked with a friend of mine today at the local bar over MvR. He's a fellow aviation guy that enjoys it just as much as I do. I like to bring him over and have many long debates with him. Anyway here's what happened:

Just 2 days ago, we were sitting down and discussing MvR when he brought up the topic of his reputation being linked to kills. As we got to talking, he said that he thought perhaps the Baron was a bit overrated (however, he still kept true to the fact that he was no doubt one of the best fighter pilots of the war).

Anyway, he brought up a good point that I'd never really paid very much attention to. Quite a few of MvR's kills were made against bombers that were slow, clumsy, and quite easy targets (although most were able to hold their own in a fight, save for the pitiful R.E.8's and highly vulnerable F.E.2b's). He also mentioned that the Baron shot down more bombers (a little over 40) than fighters, where as aces such as Udet (with 62 victories) shot down more fighters than the Baron, but scored less bombers.

Now, the question:

Do you agree with John's statement?

[StephenLawson]

The short answer is yes. Man does not gain recogintion by fighters downed. But by every recconn, bomber destroyed saving the army. That was his and every fighter pilot's job.

[airwarrior]

Stephen is right. The bombers and recon planes were alot more important than the other pursuit planes.

Bombers weren't "easy" targets either. More than a few could easily hold their own in a fight. I see no one debating whether or not Frank Luke demands as much respect for being a mere balloon buster?

[PfalzPflyer]

Though I'm not one of the fawning MvR worshippers you will occasionally find here on this forum, I will say that there is little doubt that he was one of the best, if not the best, fighter pilots of his generation. His victory record speaks for itself.

He was also probably the best squadron leader of the Great War. He took the things learned by Immelmann and Boelke, and was able to teach it to make it work on a large scale. He also seemed to have an innate ability to bring out the best in the people around him, and that is true leadership.

Lawson and airwarrior are right, observation types were the targets of primary importance. Artillery spotters like BE2s and RE8s were particularly important. Remember, more troops were killed by artillery than any other single weapon in the Great War, even machine guns.

Dean in Omaha

[JFM]

If this reputation is that MvR was overrated then no, I do not agree. (I also respectfully disagree that F.E.2s were highly vulnerable, but that's another subject.)

It seems perhaps that many view WW1 aerial combat the same way they view multiplayer flight sims flown online—“I’m over the big lake at 2,000 meters. Come and get me.”

Yes, MvR shot down more two-seaters than single-seaters (and he considered attacking the former more dangerous than the latter). If shooting down two-seaters was such a non-accomplishment, why didn’t everybody shoot down 45 two seaters, as MvR did? In fact, only four other German pilots had more total victories than MvR had two-seater victories (Jacobs 48, Voss 48, Löwenhardt 54, Udet 62).

Frequently MvR is measured with the “he shot down a lot of two-seaters, therefore he must be overrated” yardstick. Yet, perplexingly, no other pilot is measured with the same yardstick. Let us use that yardstick on just a few other pilots and then compare them to MvR (source: Franks, Bailey, Guest, Above the Lines; Shores, Franks, Guest, Above the Trenches):

MvR:
Total: 80
Single-seaters: 35
Two-seaters: 45
Total percentage of two-seater victories: 56%

LvR:
Total: 40
Single-seaters: 16
Two-seaters: 24
Total percentage of two-seater victories: 60%

Paul Baumer:
Total: 43
Single-seaters: 19
Two-seaters or balloons: 24
Total percentage of two-seater/balloon victories: 56%

Max Immelmann:
Total: 17
Single-seaters: 3
Two-seaters: 14
Total percentage of two-seater victories: 82%

Lanoe Hawker:
Total: 7
Single-seaters: 2
Two-seaters: 5
Total percentage of two-seater victories: 71%

Taffy Jones:
Total: 37
Single-seaters: 12
Two-seaters or balloons: 25
Total percentage of two-seater/balloon victories: 68%

James McCudden
Total: 57
Single-seaters: 12
Two-seaters: 45
Total percentage of two-seater victories: 79%

Albert Ball
Total: 44
Single-seaters: 13
Two-seaters or balloons: 31
Total percentage of two-seater victories: 70%

Does this mean most pilots had more two-seater victories than single-seaters and, if so, they were better than those who did not? Of course not--for instance, Udet (as stated above) and Mannock shot down more single-seaters. It just illustrates that MvR was not the only pilot whose victory tally contained a preponderance of two-seaters—and yet his skills alone are regarded as lesser because of it. When was the last time you saw anyone suggest Ball or McCudden or Immelmann were overrated because they shot down more two-seaters than single-seaters?

That Richthofen had more credited victories than anyone else is not debatable. Did this make him the best? I don’t know; “best” depends on interpretation and everybody has their own. Based on mine, he was.

[Barrett]

The matter of MvR "beating up on two-seaters" is as old as archie whitehouse, whose influence permeates WW I discussion even today. Good grief! The fighter frigging EXISTED to destroy/deter two-seaters, which controlled the major killer on the Western Front--artillery.

If occasionally an enemy fighter got in the way en route to The Duty Two-Seater, that was just part of the job.

MvR as well as Sir Hugh Trenchard certainly understood the priorities--whether anybody else did or not.

[Tailspin]

Erich,

There are a couple of ways to answer this question. First: any man who flew in combat in World War One was undoubtably taking extreme risk, and this man was the victor 80 times and was only brought down 3 times.

Second: as several others have stated, the 2 seaters were more directly contributing to the tactical ground war, and the air war was, in that era, mostly subordinate to the ground war. The strategic air campaigns were minimal, and Rittmeister von Richthofen was not assigned to either escorting Gothas or intercepting Handley-Pages and Capronis.

Third: remember that a lucky bullet from a lowly FE2b was credited with wounding von Richthofen in the head and causing him to be invalided for months. These airplanes were outclassed, but were not harmless.

I understand your friend's opinion and it's certainly a rational one, but I disagree with it. To put it in a completely different context: which contributed more to the American Navy in World War Two, shooting down a Kate torpedo plane or its Zero escort? The Zero was more of a threat to the American F4F pilot, but the Kate could torpedo his ship. The Kate's the prioity. Similarly, the RE-8 directing fire on the German lines is more important than the Sopwith Pup flying top cover.

Tom

[PfalzPflyer]

[QUOTE=JFM;350639]
Frequently MvR is measured with the “he shot down a lot of two-seaters, therefore he must be overrated” yardstick. Yet, perplexingly, no other pilot is measured with the same yardstick. Let us use that yardstick on just a few other pilots and then compare them to MvR (source: Franks, Bailey, Guest, Above the Lines; Shores, Franks, Guest, Above the Trenches):

James McCudden
Total: 57
Single-seaters: 12
Two-seaters: 45
Total percentage of two-seater victories: 79%QUOTE]

Good point, JFM. In fact, McCudden actually specialized in whacking German two-seaters. He went so far as to have his engine fitted with high-compression pistons so he could reach the altitudes where they operated.
Yet nobody ever says anything about him being less deserving of praise. Why? Simple. He was doing his job, as was MvR.

Best regards to all,
Dean in Omaha

[Fallschirmjager]

No one has mentioned that von Richtofen, as well as most of these aviators, were the age of the average college student today if not younger. To do what they did a mere decade after the advent of powered flight is remarkable, and none of them,nor their achievements, desrve the label of "overrated". Just a thought...

Fallschirmjager

[Reinout]

Whether MvR was the best is a matter of opinion, but that he was one of the very best is obvious.

His reputation is not overrated if you ask me, whether we discuss his reputation as a fighter pilot, combat leader or unit commander. He also helped direct the German air effort and contributed to overall German morale by being a public figure and idol.

Many people conveniently forget he shot down 35 fighter types as well. I think Manfred used to say that a fighter is defenseless once he was on its tail whereas a two-seater remained a threat as long as the rear gunner was able to defend the plane - small wonder MvR aimed for the observer first...

More than a few German top pilots were killed by the return fire of multi-seaters, with Max Ritter von Mueller and Erwin Boehme springing to mind instantly. Many two-seaters were downed with ease but do not make the mistake of assuming that means they were easy. In war there are very little certainties - ask Clausewitz.

Kind regards,

Reinout