477 or 425

TheBicyclingGuitarist · 23 July 2007, 07:08 PM

Hello all. Forgive me if I am stirring a dead topic. So far as I know, the questions I ask are still unresolved with experts on contrary positions.

I have "lurked" as a guest in closed discussions from years past about whether or not the images from Lechelle in late March 1918 are of 477/17 or of 425/17. Last I heard, Dan San-Abbott says they are not and he doesn't necessarily agree with the author Alex Imrie of the Fokker Triplane book.

Has there been any new evidence or interpretations of the evidence since the last time this topic was posted?

I obtained permission some years ago from Murray at Century Imaging to post copies of the colorized photographs of the lechelle triplane and of von Richthofen and his dog Moritz.

On a related note, again, any new developments on whether or not the doggy picture is from April 21, 1918 or from a month earlier? Again, last I heard Dan San-Abbott says it was from earlier, and others cite the memoirs of Richard Wenzl (who took the photo) and the adjutant Karl Bodenschatz.

I agree that brand-new triplanes being delivered even in April 1918 had the very obsolete style national insignia markings that were already outdated when the very first triplanes came out. So it is not implausible to me that the triplane in the background could have been a new one being delivered to Jasta 4, or even one from Jasta 6 or 11 being passed down that hadn't had the markings changed because everyone was too busy (spring offensive and all that). When the markings changed the previous month, how can we know if EVERY plane in the squadrons had them changed immediately?

I hope it is okay to post the URL of a page on my web site. It's been there a few years, and isn't going anywhere anytime soon if I can help it. I just edited it today based on information from past discussions in these very forums.

Colorized photograph of the Red Baron's triplane

I have been interested in World War One aviation all my life, since I was very little. There seems to be a lot of research published the past twenty years that is unfamiliar to me yet. Thank you for reading this far. I look forward to your replies.

TheBicyclingGuitarist · 24 July 2007, 06:55 PM

I recall one of the points made about the doggy picture was that the streak patterns on the wing matched those of a particular Fokker in an earlier photography, and the odds of that happening make it likely it is the same aircraft in both photographs.

Why would that rule out the photograph being from the morning of April 21st? Does the other photograph show this aircraft with Balkan crosses? That would indicate that the doggy photograph is from an earlier time. If the other photograph has the obsolete insignia markings as from the factory, I don't see how identifying this particular Fokker rules out the doggy photograph being from the morning of April 21, 1918.

Re: the Lechelle photographs of the Red baron's triplane
If the machine at Lechelle is 477/17, then the other photograph showing the same machine under guard also shows 477/17 because of the distinctive fuselage blemish. So why is it identified as 425/17 in more than one place? Who says so? Who says nay? I did search for pages on this topic. Please forgive me if it has already been discussed to death and solved to everyone's satisfaction (or if everyone has stated their views even if no agreement has been found).

If the main argument against the Lechelle triplane being 425 is that there is no RECORD of Richthofen using that machine before April 20, I don't think that is strong enough to rule out the possibility of its being at Lechelle on March 26. It seems to me that even if he didn't fly it on any missions that were written down, the possibility exists that it was available to him. What about the Squadron/Signal book identifying it as one of FIVE triplanes that used silk fabric as an experiment? Any word on the use of silk fabric? What was their source? Fokker factory records, army records? Jagdgeschwader records? Personal reminiscences? Wild speculation? I know the Squadron Signal book misidentifies many Fokkers, so I don't have much faith in any data it provides.

In the paperback edition of The Day the Red Baron Died by Dale Titler, there is a photograph purportedly of the "Red Devil" triplane as it appeared the day Richthofen died. I haven't seen the particular photograph anywhere else. Does anyone know which picture I'm talking about? Dan-San Abbott, whose views I greatly respect, says in a post from years ago that NO pictures exist of 425/17 INTACT (of course there are many photographs of its wreckage dismantled after the crash). What is the triplane in the Titler book then? 477 from another angle? some other aircraft?

I take it from the lack of response to my original post that this question may be already settled. Forgive me for not finding the answers in my Google searching if that is the case. If it HAS been settled, please send me a hyperlink to the pertinent resource. If it HASN'T been settled, anyone up for more discussion? I for one would really like to know if any photographs do exist of the Red Baron's last triplane INTACT.

Laserlloyd · 24 July 2007, 07:48 PM

TheBicyclingGuitarist:

The doggy photo your referring to, Is this the one?

richth_dog.jpg

Don't know if this is the one but the Dr.I in the background is not MvR's

If your referring to a different one then let me know wich one.

Thanks...

Lloyd...

Dan_San_Abbott · 24 July 2007, 08:19 PM

TheBicyclingGuitarist:
The Doggy Picture cannot have been taken at LeChelle Airfield. At LeChelle Jasta 6 and Jasta 11 were using French Bessaneau tent Hangars. The Doggy Picture has th German Field Tents in the background. I offer the following comments. Richard Wenzl captioned the picture being taken on 21 April 1918, MvR's last day. No one has considered the possibility that Wenzl had erred on the date and place. Jasta 6 and 11 had started changing to the balken (beam) cross in the photo taken on 26 March 1918 (Alex Imrie's dating) at LeChelle. The Idflieg directive specified the cross change to be finished by 4 April 1918.
It is my opinion that this photo was taken at Avenes-le-Sec or Awoingt airfields. I just got out of the hospital on Monday, and I don't want to get into another discussion about Dr.I 477/17 and 425/17. It's just my opinion!
Blue skies,
Dan-San

TheBicyclingGuitarist · 24 July 2007, 09:10 PM

Hi Dan. I hope you are well after your hospital visit.

I searched earlier posts on the 425 subject and your reasoning and evidence have made me think it IS 477 in the Lechelle photograph and NOT 425.

So the doggy picture definitely isn't Lechelle...There is a Bessaneau hanger still being used by some glider club somewhere. I guess the doggy picture *could* be from Cappy on that famous Sunday morning, especially since it goes so well with that story about the wheel chock tied to the tail and there is a chock in the photo. Coincidence? But I don't discount the possibility of anyone making an error, R. Wenzl or me included.
Thanks for your input and I hope you feel better.

alex_revell · 25 July 2007, 03:27 AM

I've known Alex Imrie for many years and know extremely well his approach to research. He would never, repeat never, make an assertion if he were not 100 per cent sure of the facts. I have never known him to put a guess or a supposition into print without qualifying it as such. I remember discussing many times the 'doggy' photo. Speaking from memory, I believe that Alex had an original print from Wenzl. Unfortunately, I am no longer in touch with Alex so I can't ask him to refresh my memory. However, I am positive that he was absolutely sure of his facts in stating that the photo was taken at Cappy on the morning of April 21, 1918. I remember him pointing out that when the photo was first published in the 1930s there were plenty of people about who would have refuted Wenzl's statement that it was taken on the morning of April 21st, if that were incorrect. A claimed last photo of Von R would have been a pretty hot topic! Another important point to generally remember is that Alex knew personally many ex GAF pilots in the 60s when he was stationed in Berlin, not just as research sources, but as drinking buddies. I know from my own experience with ex RFC/RAF people that one learns a lot of extraneous points of interest from such personal contacts. Incidently, the caption in Alex's triplane book states that the white-tailed triplane in the background was a new machine which had recently arrived for Jasta 4.

TheBicyclingGuitarist · 25 July 2007, 07:35 AM

Hello and thanks for replying Alex. oh I'm confused now...

So the machine at Lechelle MIGHT be 425/17? And the doggy picture MIGHT be from April 21st? Aaaarrrggghh

I'd like to know how Alex Imrie is so sure it's 425 in the Lechelle picture, so sure to put it in print. What was his source of information? Next time you see him, please ask him.

Taz · 25 July 2007, 08:26 AM

Guitatist- There were two white tailed Dr.Is in Jasta 11, one flown by Hans Weiss (545/17), most likely with white upper wing also and possibly even more white paint, and one flown by Edgar Scholz (591/17). Both of these aircraft were concidentally crashed fatally on 2 May 1918. A new photo provided by Reinhard Zankl and featured in Greg's new Fokker Dr.I Jagdstaffel proved to Alex that two white tailed Dr.Is were present in JG I/Jasta 11. Even more interesting is the fact the photo probably also shows Ernst Udet's Jasta 11 Dr.I 149/17, described by him in interviews in the 1930s. Regardless of the date of the photo, there is a good chance the white-tailed aircraft in the photo in this thread is 591/17.

All that needs to be said on the 425 vs 477 issue has already been written. Keep looking. The same subject just came up two or three weeks ago. Recommend picking up Greg's book for the latest. Ed Ferko had prints of the Lechelle photos where he could read 425/17 through the red paint. New research by Dr.I expert Langdon Badger on the remains of 425/17 shows damage to the leading edge of the upper wing where the stacking pad would have been. The Lechelle photo shows the same stacking pad missing.

In his combat reports, MvR describes 477/17 as having the same paint scheme as 127/17.

Taz
Terry Phillips

alex_revell · 26 July 2007, 04:36 AM

bicyclingGuitarist,

I'm no longer in touch with Alex I. I'm in Cornwall and he's now in his native Scotland, at the other end of the country. I don't know what his source is for his caption of the Lechelle photo but you can bet it's cast iron, otherwise he wouldn't put it. I try not to be biased in favour of Alex I, but having seen his vast collection, of more years than I care to remember, he's the only person I would take as 100% correct on anything to do with the GAF. Even people like Neal O'Connor got most of his information from Alex. I've seen Neal shaking his head in disbelief at the size and scope of Alex's collection and his overwhelming knowledge of the subject. Poor Dan San once had the temerity in Windsock to question some of Alex's statements in his triplane book and was completely demolished by Alex's replies.

TheBicyclingGuitarist · 26 July 2007, 05:35 AM

I have edited my page several times as a result of this thread. I think I have phrased things appropriately. I thank everyone who has participated.

Laserlloyd, I was talking about two different photographs in my original post. The doggy pic you posted is one; the famous and controversial photo of the Red Baron's triplane at Lechelle is the other one. Sorry if I didn't make it clear enough.

The edited page is Colorized photograph of the Red Baron's triplane.

I do wish the colorizer had done the engine better in this photo. Still it is interesting to see the photo in color. As for the doggy pic, I just saw the line on the ground running straight from the chock towards the Red Baron as he holds his dog. If the anecdote about the tail is correct, that adds to the likelihood this is perhaps the last photograph taken of Richthofen alive. I still present both sides for this picture too though.