Question on Flieger-Erinnerungs/"Retired" Pilot's Badge

[Aerowallah]

I spoke with Mike Stacey at SOS. He was a researcher and writer for Cross and Cockade. He claims based on period documents that criteria for a Flieger-Erinnerungsabzeichen DID NOT require loss of flying status, and that it is not really a "retired" pilot's badge. But that it was given more for time in service (he thought three years). Can anyone confirm this, or have documents stating the criteria of award?

I ask because on another thread there is an argument about whether a strange looking badge on theis Sanke card is an Erinnerungsabzeichen or a Flugzeugfuhrer Abz. with the sky cut-out around the badge (Everyone will be disappointed if it is only shadow or tarnish!!)









The thread is

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=16599


By all means tell me which way you vote! But I am especially interested if anyone has proof of the criteria for awarding this badge in contemporary documents!!

Rgds
John

[rammjaeger]

John,

the question is to which "period documents" did he refer?
The problem is that criteria for awards can change over the years!

The "period document" known to me (early 1916) seems to disprove Mike Stacey's opinion but I can not exclude a later change of the criteria.

I quotate from Armee-Verordnungs-Blatt 1916 Nr.8, page 43 (29 January 1916):

2. (...) Von dem Beliehenen ist das Abzeichen so lange zu tragen, wie er zum Flugzeugführer oder Beobachtungsoffizier im Felde geeignet ist und im Dienst der Fliegertruppe Verwendung findet. Ist letzteres nicht mehr der Fall, so ist das Abzeichen einzuziehen und mit der Verleihungsurkunde auf dem Dienstweg dem Chef des Feldflugwesens zurückzureichen. Als Verleihungsurkunde gilt die dienstlich beglaubigte Abschrift der vom Chef des Feldflugwesens vollzogenen Verleihungsverfügung.

3. Den Militär-Flugzeugführern oder Beobachtungsoffizieren, die bei ihrem Ausscheiden mindestens seit drei Jahren als solche bei der Fliegertruppe tätig gewesen sind, kann an Stelle des bisherigen Abzeichens das in dauerndem Besitz zu belassende Erinnerungsabzeichen vom Chef des Feldflugwesens verliehen werden.
Von der Erfüllung dieser Vorbedingung kann der Chef des Feldflugwesens absehen, wenn das Ausscheiden aus der Fliegertruppe gegen den Willen des Betreffenden - z.B. infolge einer Verwundung oder eines Unfalles während des Krieges - erfolgt.
Dem mit dem Erinnerungsabzeichen Beliehenen ist vom Chef des Feldflugwesens eine Besitzurkunde auszustellen."

Short:
The pilot badge and the observer badge [AND the Urkunde/diploma!] had to be given back [SIC!] after the end of the active service as pilot/observer in the Fliegertruppe!
[In fact many aviators tried to avoid that and additional orders demanded this later again - but obviously with low success.]

IF these men have had more than 3 years of service in the Fliegertruppe then they COULD (not MUST!) get the Erinnerungsabzeichen INSTEAD of the pilot badge or observer badge! In exceptional cases the Chief of the Air Force could - despite of this regulation - give Erinnerungsabzeichen to aviators with lesser long service if these men had to leave service because of wounds or accidents in service!

In fact that means only a minority of the German pilots and observers could get the Erinnerungsabzeichen (based on the requirements of 1916)!

[Aerowallah]

Hi, Hannes!

Very interesting, do you mean in some cases a pilot with three years' service got the Erinnerungsabz. and continued flying with it?

Rgds
John

[rammjaeger]

I mean pilots/aviators who had already finished active flying continued (means they left the Fliegertruppe or did only ground service because of lacking healthiness etc.) to wear the pilots or observer badge against the rules of the military!

The military bureaucracy was not pleased about this ignorance of these ex-fliers and tried to stop this misuse of the badges.

I don´t know if the 1916-rule was changed later but it is obvious that after the sudden end of the war many aviators kept their pilot or observer badge and applied for Erinnerungsabzeichen too. So I would not wonder about a later change in the requirements.

I see also a chance that an aviator left service in Fliegertruppe, got the Erinnerungsabzeichen and returned to flying service later again.

There are a lot of opportunities outside the common rules possible.

[Aerowallah]

Many thanks for your answer! Now for the fun part...what do you think Rumey is wearing? Some have said on the other forum that you could buy and wear badges that had patina chemically added to the silver around the Taube, but I still think it is shadow caused by UFOs passing in front of the sun...

[rammjaeger]

I was afraid I would need new glasses soon - now after examining this photograph I know I need new ones!

I am not able to risk a reasonable judgement about the nature of the medal beast under consideration of the bad quality of the picture

but for the fun part I am willing to see a starting duck on the medal!

[frontflieger]

Hello,

how does the Erinnerungsabzeichen look like? ... I think Rumey's badge was cut-out... he was flying... while die'ing

Thorsten

[Immo_Frese]

Originally Posted by frontflieger

Hello,

how does the Erinnerungsabzeichen look like? ... I think Rumey's badge was cut-out... he was flying... while die'ing

Thorsten

Hi all,

see the attachment...

btw, I don't think that Rumey was wearing the Fliegererinnerungsabzeichen. He was still active and therefore he had to wear the common pilots badge... The run on the Fliegererinnerungsabzeichen begun after the war.

The rules for the award were slightly modified after the war when the Inspektion der Fliegertruppe was disbanded. According to the Armee-Verordnungsblatt 1919, p.703 the Fliegererinnerungsabzeichen was only awarded to those former members of the Fliegertruppe who were in possesion of the pilots badge, observer badge or gunner badge and with at least 4 years of active service time. Exception would only be made when the person in question was severely WIA.

Former members of the Fliegertruppe who wanted to qualify for the award of the Fliegererinnerungsabzeichen had to hand in an application for the award to the Reichswehrministerium. If I remember correct, applications were only accepted from 1919 - 1921.

Immo

[IMPERIAL QUEST]

Well friends, I said it on the other forum, and I'll say it here too. The "shadows" or "cutouts" do NOT match that of the Retired Pilots Badge. Nevermind the fact that the chance of Rumey wearing a RPB was zilch...it just does not add up. A little history read will tell you that he was KIA - no chance to wear one as he never retired from flying...retired from living yes, but not retired from flying.

A brief examination of the photos I posted on GMIC with red filled in areas will show that the angles of the object in the center of the two badges are very very different. I know that there are some who outwardly dismiss cut out pilot badges just because they have not seen or owned one, but are we going to now dismiss period photographs to fit what we think should have been (or not)90 years after the fact??

I could possibly go for the patinated background explanaition as I have seen a very rare Gunner's badge having this effect. I would like to add that the Gunner's badge had a cut out background with a brass plate riveted to the reverse creating a darkening effect to the rear. This could be a possibility here too...but we are still talking cut out. Also, I could (maybe) buy the fact that the background may have been patinated without being cut out. I would like to point out here as I did there that if the "darkened" area on the badge is patinated...why is it not the same depth, shade and consistentcy of the EK I? I find it odd that the "darkened" area on the badge is consistent with the uniform texture and shading surrounding areas of the badge.

But...
Nothing on this earth is going to convince me that Rumey is (1) wearing a badge he was never entitled to, and (2) the angles of the wings on the bird and the plane simply do not match in the photos. Put the photos under an electron microscope if you wish...the angles still won't match. I guess seeing is not believing for some.