"Official Scores"

Breguet · 29 September 2002, 01:34 PM

Who compiled these and on what basis?

Was it different for each combatant ?

Was it done during the war ?

Was in based entirely on combat reports ?

??? ??? ???

gregoire · 30 September 2002, 02:28 AM

I will answer by a question the answer is it depend of the country, I will say for france confirmed score is the number of comfirmed victory now some official document are talking of non confirmed score

Soderbaum · 30 September 2002, 05:04 AM

Hi

Also the German Air Force did have an official victory(Abschusse) system, and they did publish lists merely on monthly base "during" the War...

8)
Gunnar

Dan_San_Abbott · 30 September 2002, 08:41 AM

Breguet:
* *In reply, I offer the following:
1. The RFC/RAF victories were credited at RFC/RAF HQ, in France. They were published I believe daily. Three books have been published which lists theall the communiques issued by the RFC/RAF for 1915/1916, 1917 and 1918. *
* *The procedure was the the Combat Report went from the Squadron to Wing HQ. who accepted or rejected the claim in the combat report and it was forwarded to RFC/RAF HQ. who confirmed and reported the results in the official communiques.
The RFC had established rules and categories for accreditation. Destroyed, Out of control etc. These were developed over a period of time. witnesses were required.
2. I can't help you with the French. I have two monthly reports that list German aircraft shot down/ captured in French territory. It credits the victor, Escadrille and give the names of the German crew an aircraft type anf number and unit. *
* Maybe Frank Bailey can jump in here and give the specifics about the Fench system.
3. The Fliegertruppe/Luftstreitkräfte sytem was simular to the RFC/RAF.
* *The Combat Report was counter-signed by the Jastaführer and forwarded to the KOFL at Armee HQ. The confirmation would be given at the KOFL which would report the victory in the daily Kofl reports, published weekly. The KOFL (Kommandeur der Flieger, "Commander of Fliers" at Army Headquarters.
* If the claim was coming from a Schusta or a Fl.Abt., it would go the the Grupperführer der Flieger, (Grufl), Group Leader of Fliers at Corps Hq. would would countersign and forward the Combat report to the KOFL.
* *The KOFL would forward his accreditation to the Luftstreitkräfte HQ in Berlin. The victory list were published monthly up to and for August 1918, published in October 1918.
* * So to answer your questions,
The victories were officially granted. *
The victories were awarded during the war. *Some of the late victories were awarded after the war. *In some rare instances EVR, after official review, were awarded years later.
The systems were simular for the various countries,
The RFC/RAF system was the only one to recognize Out of Controls.
The victories were based on the Combat Reports of the claimant and his witnesses.
All followed the military chain of command.
All were published.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * Blue skies,
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Dan-San
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

MikeW · 30 September 2002, 11:03 AM

Adrian,

Dan said

Quote:

The RFC/RAF system was the only one to recognize Out of Controls

Don't forget the RNAS, in fact, Never forget the RNAS!

I believe the French had a somewhat similar recognition "Probably Destroyed" though I'm not sure if this applied just to the Naval fliers or to both flying services.

Mike

Soderbaum · 30 September 2002, 11:10 AM

Hi

Frankly, I cant see any similarities between the German VICTORY system and the "possible" scoring system used by the British...

According to my notes the Kofl could NOT confirm any victories. Their job was put forward the material to the Kogenluft who was the MAN(and only) who made the decision....

As the British did NOT have an official victory system during the War not a single British flyer did actually achieve any official victory ...

In PRO it is impossible to find any victory reports, and the over 40.000 combat reports does not in a single case result in a reported victory number...

The British Air authorities has NEVER published any official victory list...the reason..It is an impossible task..

I have read through some British magazines for the youths from the 1930s and they suddenly began publishing so called British victory lists, and nearly every month they could produce "new Aces" never before known...

...through some contacts with the Air ministry...

8)
Gunnar

Dan_San_Abbott · 30 September 2002, 01:23 PM

Gunnar;
Apparently you haver never read Christopher Cole's , "Royal Flying Corps, 1915-1916" and "Royal Air Force, 1918" they contain the daily official communiques. These two volumes, do report victories, pilot's name, squadron and location. ad date.
There is a third volume for 1917. Unfortunately I don't have it.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

Breguet · 30 September 2002, 01:29 PM

Gunnar,

I have a copy of Dallas' Official Service Record which also mentions some, though not by any means all, of his victories. How "Official" do you want ?

gregoire · 30 September 2002, 02:16 PM

Quote:

I believe the French had a somewhat similar recognition "Probably Destroyed" though I'm not sure if this applied just to the Naval fliers or to both flying services.

Mike

Mike the french system was for the army unit the navy did not have any sort of official victory system (you may find some victory confirmation in the official document as medal citation)

for the french system
only confirmed victory were credited, uncomfirmed victory were noted as probable and were not included in the pilot score never the less you often find mention of them in various pilot (or observer) citation, shared victory are given as one per pilot or crew member involved
how a victory is confirmed depended a lot of the unit (theGC12 under brocard was one of the strictest) similarly some unit were giving less shared than other and that was a lot at the discretion of the unit commender (under brocard only 4 shared for the rest of the war over 30)
most of the document I have seen are unit (at least group related and I have not seen any kind of centraly published document)
For exemple I have close to me a mission report from GB4 in it said
"
Result
French side
plane 8 shoot down close to ...
plane 5: 4 bullet in the radiator

enemy side
one enemy plane is shoot down in flame at 17:20 over " a location" by the crew of plane 2 (comfirmed)
"

it is tipical of sich report for a victory to be comfirmed a certain number of witness were needed (there too it depends a lot of the unit at the begining at least) in avearge it was 2 independant witness

for the small story if at N3 you made a claim that wa not confirmed you have to offer champagne to all the pilto of your mess (seperate mess for officer and NCO) that may have been the case at the whole GC12

Soderbaum · 30 September 2002, 02:21 PM

Hi again

I have lent all ORIGINAL RFC/RAF Com. through the International Library system and read everything...

In NOT a single case(through all years) have I seen a note that the shot down of an e/a, OOC,DD etc...do result in a given Victory number...

Please face facts folks...!

Breguet, if Dallas call his claims for victories in his own service record thats his personal choice...

8)
Gunnar