Sopwith Salamander, WW1 Service in France

Ok as stated in my other thread on getting some information updated on Will Hubbard,

An interesting note i found in his WW1 flying logbook today regarding Sopwith Salamander. According to his log book, he was flying one in the days before the final amistance. Now i know what it says on here that none of these saw service, i read that when i looked up to find out what a salamander was today when i was typing this in. There are two references to the salamander elsewhere on the net and according what i was able to find on the net today is that 2 where sent to france for testing prior to squadron deployment. What i want to know is any more original pictures/ info about these machines?

In Will Hubbards Flying Log book on the
1 - 11 - 18 he has recorded
machine type and No Time Course Remarks
1 -11 - 18 Full armour salamander 2h15 low bombing 4 bombs and 320 rnds
2 - 11- 18 "" "" 1h45 Balloon Strafe 1 balloon deflated
4 -11- 18 "" "" 30m Low bombing 4 bombs 300 rds
"" "" "" "" 40m "" "" ??cant read???
8-11-18 "" "" 1hr45 COP NEAS
9-11-18 "" "" 1hr40 "" "" "" ""
"" "" 804 50m COP returned generator jammed
9-11-18 2125 35m "" "" to lines
10-11-18 6577 45m OP 4 fokkers not attacked
"" "" 804 40m Engine test Ok


from the 13-11-18 he is back in the air flying a Camel from the 13th to the 27th no say 804 and 3371. In my other thread i thought 804 may have been the salamander no, but futher on into 1919 it is listed next to camel.
on the 27th he changes to Snipe 631B flys to 2/1/19
3/1/19 Salamander no 20764 20 m First "flip"

He seams to mention "first flip" with some of the aircraft he has flown. For the snipe it was on 27/12/18

Anyway i know this information will probably cause disagreement, but i can only quote the original documentation, before disagreeing try finding out where the two salamanders ended up in france please. Ive been looking but like most RFC history it is hard to find.

Cheers

[Graeme]

Nick

From what I can work out, one of the five Salmander prototypes went to No 1 Air Supply Depot in France about 9 May 1918 and underwent trials until late June, by which time a production order had already been given to Sopwiths. This was one of E5429, E5430 or E5431.

Captain J W Pinder, No 213 Squadron, tested another Salamander at Brooklands during August 1918 and reported that it handled as well as a Bristol Fighter.

Apparently the weight of armour etc meant the Salamander had an endurance of "well under two hours"; tests on E5451 produced a figure of only 90 minutes.

150 Salamanders were ordered from The Air Navigation Company Limited but the contract was cancelled before any were produced.

100 Salamanders were due to be built by Glendower Aircraft Company Limited (order placed 1 November 1918) but only 20 or so were built and the company went into liquidation soon after the war.

400 Salmanders were ordered from National Aircraft Factory No 1 (order placed 1 November 1918) but due to labour difficulties and strikes at the works, production did not get underway before the order was cancelled.

100 Salamanders were due to be produced by Palladium Autocars Limited (order placed 1 November 1918) but the contract was cancelled and none were built.

Sopwith Aviation Company constructed 163 Salamanders (three from the batch E5429 to E5434, three being cancelled and the remainder F6501 to F7000). Modifications deemed necessary before the type entered squadron service included changes to the balanced ailerons, modifications to the fin and rudder (in September 1918), strengthening of the engine cowling (November) and re-arrangement of the dashboard and instrument positioning (December 1918). Finally, the type was required to have "Observation Machine" camouflage, judged necessary immediately before the Armistice. It would appear, judged by these requirements, the statement that none saw operational service in the war is accurate.

150 Salamanders were ordered from Wolseley Motors Limited (order placed 11 July 1918) but the contract was cancelled at the time of the Armistice and none were built.

As far as the serial numbers you mention are concerned:

C3371 and D3371 were both Camels, C3371 going to No 3 Squadron in September 1918; D3371 went to No 203 Squadron in May 1918, was damaged in June, rebuilt in July and re-numbered F6035.

Snipe 631B is probably E6318.

If 804 relates to a Camel is must be H804 (erected during October 1918 and with No 2 Aircraft Issues by the end of the month).

Likewise, 2125 must be Camel F2125 which went to No 3 Squadron in August 1918.

6577 is probably Camel D6577 (to No 3 Squadron in April 1918 and recorded as the CO's machine).

Information from "Sopwith - The Man And His Aircraft" and "The Camel File".

Graeme

Greame, Thanks for the reply the information has been really interesting. It would not have been uncommon for will to be recieving many test aircraft, due to his qualifications as an aircraft engine engineer, and his work with daimler before and during the war, with aircraft engines.

I also double checked time on the salamander flight it definatly says 2h15, though that is one of his longest flights of the entire war. The only longer flights are in a Snipe 2hr 30, and in Camel 3371 3hr, though he may have landed as he lists a destination Omer and return Do you have any hits on the number 20764 - which is the number which was written under the last salamander entry??

I also Found a few other interesting tidbits from his flying logbook and i also have a few questions on aircraft names and abreviations i dont recognise. Any help is much appreciated

- Sept 21 1918 Parachute testing Camel U5265 Ref Wing 3-2675-12,
(Dad and grandpa used to joke about Will having to "volenteer" for this test, and saying that thier was really no volenteering about it.


-On snipe 631 B ?? There is a very clear sopace separation between the 631 and the B, on all entries so may not be an 8.
-There is also an intesting entry on 5-12-18 for Snipe631 B, it is for an engine power test, 2h 10m, the altitude written is 25000ft, now how much air is there at that height?? It says the engine is A.I.D or may be A.1.D dont know what type of engine this is.

-What is a BE2c or may be BE2s? what ever it is he always says dud engine

-What does the abreaviation COP mean in terms of orders

-Also what is Camel 1932X , it is the X which has me intrigued flown 22-12-18 and a few times after that

-Also on the 3 Squadron locations during the war it ends with Inchy, was this a german airfield, cause i have a undated special mission report to for a mass attack on Inchy by 3 flights of no 3 squadron. In the log book, no results are listed for special missions just special mission is written.


anyway greatly appreciate any answers people can give me

[Graeme]

Nick

No 3 Squadron was pretty mobile; the airfields I have listed are:

Amiens, 13-Aug-14 to 15-Aug-14
Maubeuge, 16-Aug-14 to 22-Aug-14
Le Cateau, 23-Aug-14 to 24-Aug-14
St Quentin, 25-Aug-14 to 25-Aug-14
La Fere, 26-Aug-14 to 27-Aug-14
Compiegne, 28-Aug-14 to 29-Aug-14
Senlis, 30-Aug-14 to 30-Aug-14
Juilly, 31-Aug-14 to 01-Sep-14
Serris, 02-Sep-14 to 02-Sep-14
Pezearches, 03-Sep-14 to 03-Sep-14
Melun, 04-Sep-14 to 06-Sep-14
Le Touquin, 07-Sep-14 to 09-Sep-14
Coulomniers, 10-Sep-14 to 11-Sep-14
Fere-en-Tardenois, 12-Sep-14 to 05-Oct-14
Amiens, 06-Oct-14 to 07-Oct-14
Abbeville, 08-Oct-14 to 08-Oct-14
Bienfay, 09-Oct-14 to 11-Oct-14
St Omer, 12-Oct-14 to 23-Nov-14
Houges, 24-Nov-14 to 31-May-15
Auchel, 01-Jun-15 to 14-Mar-16
Bruay, 15-Mar-16 to 31-Mar-16
Bertangles, 01-Apr-16 to 09-Apr-16
La Houssoye, 10-Apr-16 to 22-Jan-17
Lavieville, 23-Jan-17 to 14-Jul-17
Longavesnes, 15-Jul-17 to 25-Aug-17
Lechelle, 26-Aug-17 to 09-Oct-17
Warloy Baillon, 10-Oct-17 to 24-Mar-18
Vert Galand, 25-Mar-18 to 25-Mar-18
Valhereux, 26-Mar-18 to 14-Oct-18
Lechelle, 15-Oct-18 to 03-Nov-18
Inchy, 04-Nov-18

On checking my files, there a Snipe H631 but I have no data concerning its disposition; perhaps another Forumite can confirm when it was manufactured and in which squadron(s) it served.

The BE2 was a stable, two-seat artillery-observation machine produced by the Royal Aircraft Factory; nicknamed the Quirk, apparently for its habit of diving into the ground before it had been attacked!

Camel 1932 is a bit of an enigma since there were only two machines with the number - D1932 which ended up at No 2 Fighting School at Marske (September/October 1918), and F1932 which went to No 73 Squadron on 16 September 1918, ran into a shell hole at the unit's new airfield on 21 September and was struck off charge on 29 September.

I've seen COP deciphered as either Central Offensive Patrol or Close Offensive Patrol; since there was a Distant Offensive Patrol, I'm tempted to go with "Close".

I can't find a Camel with the number 5265; there were a couple of Sopwiths with the number - Strutter A5265, Pup B5265 and Dolphin D5265, but no Camel.

Graeme

[TomVrille]

Originally Posted by Graeme

From what I can work out, one of the five Salmander prototypes went to No 1 Air Supply Depot in France about 9 May 1918 and underwent trials until late June, by which time a production order had already been given to Sopwiths. This was one of E5429, E5430 or E5431.

According to Sopwith Aircraft by Mick Davis, the Salamander delivered to 1 ASD was indeed E5429. The aircraft was flown to France on 9 May 1918, and after initial testing at 1 ASD, was sent to 73 Sqn, 3 Sqn, and 65 Sqn, in turn, for further evaluation. The aircraft was badly damaged in an accident at 65 Sqn on 19 May 1918, and sent to 2 ASD on 29 May to be struck off charge. The aircraft was still shown on BEF charge as late as December 1918, but classified as unworthy of reconstruction.

[Graeme]

Tom

Thanks for the extra information. Anything as to what became of the other prototypes, E5430 and E5431?

Graeme

[TomVrille]

Originally Posted by Graeme

Thanks for the extra information. Anything as to what became of the other prototypes, E5430 and E5431?

Greame

Again according to Sopwith Aircraft, E5429 was unique in that it was constructed using ordinary, non-hardened steel plates for the armored section to expedite development. The other five prototypes are said to have been completed using true armor plating. Some of these plates were found to have been distorted during heat treatment, and were hammered back into shape by hand.

I found no further reference to E5430, but E5431 was delivered to the Experimental Station at Martlesham Heath for official testing, which was completed by the end of June 1918. Initially, E5431 was in standard finish, but was converted to a camouflage finish in the 'early summer', preparatory to being sent to France for evaluation. Unfortunately, the aircraft was damaged before relocation to France could be effected.

What is described as the 'fourth prototype' was sent to France in September, and was criticized for some deficiencies in lateral control. It is unclear if this aircraft was E5432, or the second prtotype E5430. If your earlier information that three of the six planned prototypes were cancelled is correct, this would be consistent with E5430 as the aircraft that went to France in September 1918.

As for service, the first Salamander unit was 157 Sqn, formed at Upper Heyford on 14 July 1918. The first actual Salamander, F6504, was received by 23 October 1918, and utilized for type training. The squadron was scheduled to join the BEF on 21 November 1918, but the Armistice intervened, and the squadron was disbanded on 1 February 1919, having lost one aircraft (F6524) to accident.

[Graeme]

Thanks Tom, there's light at the end of the tunnel.

The production schedules quoted in Sopwith - The Man And His Aircraft, show Sopwith Aviation to have completed a total of 163 Salmanders, 160 from the main production run (in the range F6501 to F7000) and three of the six prototypes ordered on 6 March 1918 (E5429 to E5434). It would make sense for the three cancelled aircraft to have been E5432/3/4.

As per the "Air of Authority - A History of RAF Organisation" website (http://www.rafweb.org/Sqn156-160.htm):

On 9 May 1918, it was proposed to form the squadron [No 157] for deployment to France with Snipes in August but by the end of May these plans had been cancelled. It was then proposed to make it the first Salamander equipped unit, again for deployment in August, but on 4 July these plans were also cancelled. Its formation was immediately rescheduled to form on 14 July, again with Salamanders, for deployment on 14 September, but equipment shortages led to its deployment being put back to 14 October and then 14 November. It was fully equipped by 11 November with a revised deployed date of 21 November, but the Armistice, resulted in the cancellation of this and the squadron disbanded on 1 February 1919.

Graeme

[TomVrille]

As when working a jigsaw puzzle, it's nice to see the pieces beginning to fall into place!