Seaplanes -- how did they . . .?

Lugarno67 · 23 December 2006, 08:59 AM

Just thinking about this - how and when did the crew start a seaplane's engine in WWI? Did they first somehow get the plane into the water and then start it up (if so, how could they manage it? Something like an Alb. W.4 doesn't have much room on the floats, so how can the crew turn the prop?)

Or did they start the engine and then put the plane in the water? And if so, how did they deal with the plane's tendency to try and fly off? As far as I know, WWI propellers had a fixed pitch, and could not be feathered - once you start the engine, the prop's going to start pushing air over the surfaces.

Thanks for any answers.

bobs_buckles · 23 December 2006, 11:28 AM

Lugarno67,

Sorry for pointing this out, but I think you have posted in the wrong section of the forums.

Cheers.

Breguet · 23 December 2006, 11:46 PM

I don't see this as being in the wrong section. On page 81 of Marine aircraft of the 14-18 War there is a photo of a man balanced on a float starting a LVG W1 while it is on the water. This doesn't mean all were started this way but at least we know some were!

Ross_Moorhouse · 24 December 2006, 02:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Breguet

I don't see this as being in the wrong section. ................

I moved this from the Models forum...

Breguet · 24 December 2006, 03:46 AM

Of cousre if they were started from the cockpit it begs the question 'Why weren't landplanes started from the cockpit too?'

Varese2002 · 24 December 2006, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lugarno67

Just thinking about this - how and when did the crew start a seaplane's engine in WWI? Did they first somehow get the plane into the water and then start it up (if so, how could they manage it? Something like an Alb. W.4 doesn't have much room on the floats, so how can the crew turn the prop?)
Or did they start the engine and then put the plane in the water? And if so, how did they deal with the plane's tendency to try and fly off? As far as I know, WWI propellers had a fixed pitch, and could not be feathered - once you start the engine, the prop's going to start pushing air over the surfaces.
Thanks for any answers.

This is a simple question with a complicated answer I think. Looking at historical (colour) films I see almost always that the engines are already started before going down the slipway and in the water. These are "stills" captured from these films.

A few examples are these pictures:

A Friedrichshafen goes down the ramp with running engine (conventionally started)

Going out to the sea

Short Admirality Type 830 (No. 1346) going down the ramp with running engine

Going out

So the meaning of these pictures is that seaplanes / floatplanes were completely readied at shore, where they could be serviced and started in the 'normal' way just as landplanes. Going at sea was possible via a ramp or cranes.

There was only a problem when by accident it was necessary to alight at sea far from people who could help with starting the engine(s) in a way that was not impossibly dangerous.

That part goes in the next instalment of the answer.

Varese

Varese2002 · 24 December 2006, 01:29 PM

The second instalment.

First two pictures of a Felixstowe flying boat which were left over from the first instalment, but were too interesting not to publish on the forum.

Pushed down the ramp with running engines (pushed by a whole batallion)

Going to sea

But what to do if alighted in the sea with no land and personnel to hand to start the engines again?

If you look at surviving pictures of small flying boats (by example this Macchi flying boat) you always see a handle coming out of the engine. This handle is used for hand starting the engine (also on sea).

Floatplanes with a tractor or pusher in line engine could in some way or other be started with a handle, possible not permanently installed but to be used for an emergency.

Rotary single engine machines (like the Sopwith Baby single seater) were I think impossible to start again on sea. These engines could not be started with a handle.

In those days the bigger machines (flying boats) got sometimes ashore under sail. Some form of equipment was available for sailing. Pigeons were also in the inventary, just in case they were needed to bring messages ashore.

Kees [aka Varese]

mustang · 24 December 2006, 02:28 PM

Rotary engines could be started from the cockpit. I have in my possession a 140 HP Gwynne built Clerget which is fitted with a ring gear similar to that fitted to the flywheel of an automotive engine. A shaft, extending into the cockpit and fitted with a spring loaded pinion gear could be pushed forward to engage with this ring gear. A detatchable handle, stowed in clips in the cockpit, was provided and this handle could be fitted to the rear of the shaft, the whole of the assembly pushed forward to engage with the ring gear and the engine cranked over. Probably requiring a fairly robust physical effort from the occupant of the cockpit.

I have a diagram somewhere, if I can find it, which depicts the installation.

Why wasn't it fitted to land planes? Weight; and the availability of plenty of hired help to swing the prop.

Regards

Mustang

Varese2002 · 24 December 2006, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mustang

Rotary engines could be started from the cockpit. I have in my possession a 140 HP Gwynne built Clerget which is fitted with a ring gear similar to that fitted to the flywheel of an automotive engine. A shaft, extending into the cockpit and fitted with a spring loaded pinion gear could be pushed forward to engage with this ring gear. A detatchable handle, stowed in clips in the cockpit, was provided and this handle could be fitted to the rear of the shaft, the whole of the assembly pushed forward to engage with the ring gear and the engine cranked over. Probably requiring a fairly robust physical effort from the occupant of the cockpit.

I have a diagram somewhere, if I can find it, which depicts the installation.

Why wasn't it fitted to land planes? Weight; and the availability of plenty of hired help to swing the prop.
Regards

Mustang

Very interesting information. Have you any pictures of this installation with detachable handle. Do I undertand it correctly that you own a rotary engine yourself ? You must be a very lucky person. Do you run the machine also ?

Regards

Kees [aka Varese]

Breguet · 24 December 2006, 03:25 PM

Is he about to start this or just holding on to the prop?