More On Osterkamp !!

Aerowallah · 19 June 2006, 09:47 AM

Hi Gunnar, Hi Johan ...and anyone else who wants to weigh in!

I'd like to really nail down the logic on Theo and his kills / awards, so based on earlier threads I'd like to ask you these specific questions ...

1. Gunnar, does the Tagesbefehl of 19 April 1917 that says 19 Ehrenpreise were awarded mention OSTERKAMP by name? You said he didn't get one but was still owed one...

2. Gunnar, you said that the date of Theo's Ehrenbecher was mentioned in the the O'Connor book. Can anyone confirm the page and date?

3. The August 1918 Ehrenpreis to Theo, Sachsenberg, Meyers--any more info on that? Anything to suggest it wasn't Theo's normal Ehrenpreis, and nothing special?

4. We are agreed that 8. September 1916 was Theo's first victory (as an observer). What was the date of his second? Did he have any victory on 30 April 1917? Is the Aerodrome list of Theo's kills correct except for the first kill and, therefore, 30 April 1917 is kill#2?

5. Gunnar, you admit Theo and other Navy fliers who received Bechers might have been excluded from Ehrenpreise...OR they had to give their Bechers back for an Ehrenpreis once it became available. I don't understand your idea that time overlapped for Theo in a way that he might have received both?

1st Bechers—27 January 1916 .....
1st Ehrenpreise—19 April 1917 ...

Please explain the overlapping time and possible awarding of both ...

6. DOES ANYONE HAVE THE WORDING OR IMAGE OF AN EHRENPREIS URKUNDE?

Thanks, guys.

I found that the research library right around the corner has a copy of Theo's

Du oder Ich ...(1938 edition) and
Durch Hohen und Tiefen.. (1952 edition)

I'll go over them line by line and report back! But please let me know what you have for answers to the above. Thanks!
Rgds
John

Regulus · 19 June 2006, 10:46 AM

John,

I can already add this :

Yes, Osterkamp is mentioned by name in the Tagesbefehl.

Personally, I'm still convinced of the second victory on 30 April 1917 and first as mentioned on 8 September 1916, of which I have a copy of the original report he made on this matter.

Best from Johan

Aerowallah · 19 June 2006, 12:42 PM

Hi, Johan!

T H E R E F O R E .....

If Theo is mentioned in Orders of 19 April 1917 as winning an Ehrenpreis,
shouldn't the date on his Ehrenpreis (when he finally gets one) be 8 September 1916?

But if as Gunnar says he didn't get one out of the first batch of 19 and 11 days later scores his second kill, would they change the date on the next available Ehrenpreis from the 1st kill to the more recent 2nd kill? OR MAYBE I SHOULDN'T THINK "THEY"...AS YOU OR GUNNAR SAID, THE EHRENPREIS IS GIVEN BLANK...WOULDN'T THEO ENGRAVE THIS DATE ON IT?

I say YES if they or he knew he already got a Becher in 1916 for that kill, and O'Connor is right...(can anyone find O'Connor's citation?)

and Theo's next kill was DEFINITELY 30 April 1917.

I say NO if Theo didn't get the Becher (and there is no O'Connor citation) or one of the 4 other navy kills during the war that Gunnar says have no known dates turns out to be that same day...! But what are the odds of that?

Johan, can we confirm definitely from existing records that Theo had a kill on
30 April 1917?

Does anyone have O'Connor handy?

Rgds
John

Aerowallah · 19 June 2006, 02:29 PM

So, Gunnar...

If ABOVE THE LINES shows 30 April 1917 as a Theo kill (#1 or #2 mach nichts!)...

and if JASTA WAR CHRONICLES shows 27 kills on 30 April 1917 but only one to a Navy pilot, LtzS T Osterkamp...

You've got to admit that Ehrenpreis is probably Theo's as Johan suggests...or put another way, the evidence is that Theo had the most reason to engrave "30 April 1917" on an Ehrepreis (or a faker! but nobody thinks that).

But if I understand your argument it is

If he ever got a regular Ehrenpreis...it was for his first kill...or his third or later kill...or he never put a date on it and we will never know...or most likley Theo engraved his first kill on it even though he may have got a Becher for this first kill already...or the Navy refused to give him the Navy award when it came available because he already got the Army...and the existence of an Ehrenpreis with his 2nd kill date on it is down to one of 5 other pilots with unknown 1st kill dates who in almost 1,000 days might have got their first kill on 30 April 1917...

At this stage it's practically impossible to prove so many negatives! I think Johan is right!!!

My brain hurts...you can have the final word...

Regulus · 19 June 2006, 02:30 PM

John,

The victory can be confirmed without any doubt. You might even find it back in his book...

Sorry, don't have the O'Connor book...

Best from Johan

Aerowallah · 19 June 2006, 02:36 PM

By the way...

I don't own this...anyone can still buy it from Ken!

Rgds
John

jager1 · 20 June 2006, 04:12 AM

Hi All - been following these very interesting posts concerning Theo's 'possible' Award. A few years back I suggested to Ken the possibilities of this Award being Theo's.(although someone had earlier suggested this to him also)

I'd think their is certainly a very good chance this was Theo's but rather than this being a Official Award is their not a good chance its just a piece He privately purchased, even post War. In this case why engrave his name ?

Was checking out Ken's site to check out the pics of the Award but could see it - seems that its finally flown the nest!

Jager1

Aerowallah · 20 June 2006, 05:14 AM

Hi, Jager--

I asked Ken if he sold it. He said he pulled it to take better pictures and will post it back up on his site in a few weeks...

I don't think Ehrenbechers or Ehrenpreise were ever commercially available, before or after the war. Numbers were limited and strictly controlled--financed as they were by Captains of Industry--and by late war they were reduced to giving out scraps of paper. Not even the Scheissmetall copies were available beyond a point. Pilots wrote the Kogenluft after the war for Bechers and told they were out of luck. I wonder, was a denazified Ehrenpokal available through jewellers (as opposed to fakers) after the next war?

The Zeppelin Bechers were only available for a few months after the war, from January 1919 until the summer. In October the Kogenluft wrote a Zepp Hauptmann that Bechers were no longer available and that they had substituted some kind of "Bronzfigur"... only they had no more packing materials...he would have to travel and collect it! If these Bechers were made commercially available they would've been sold alongside the new Zepp badges.

I believe both awards were given out unengraved, unless squadron commanders batched them out for engraving according to some preferred style.

Rgds

Aerowallah · 20 June 2006, 05:34 AM

PS Even though silver had disappeared, I think bronze was scarce by war's end, and Ehrenpreise were manufactured in much smaller numbers generally. I'd love to see the "special" Ehrenpreis he got in 1918...could've been anything, even a cigarette case.

jager1 · 20 June 2006, 06:05 AM

Hi Aerowallah

Well that explains its not being up - still surprised its still their but then again their is no proof of its original owners identity.

My thoughts were concerning a possible post war purchase were more based on who was asking for a 'spare' Ehrenpreise, after all he was a PLM winner/ace etc. maybe He would have had a little more success than your average pilot? - I do of course take your point about lack of materials late in the War but you'd think their would be at least a few kicking about post war.

Anyway just a thought on my part, I/'m sure its possible but We'll probably never know..

I'd also love to see the "special" Ehrenpreis he got in 1918 - or even hear what it was!

Jager1