number of rounds

how many rounds--per gun--were carried by fokker d-7 and fokker tri-plane.
thx.
perry

[Romani]

Greetings,

I found out for the Dr I that this was 500 rounds per gun, apparently this was standard for all German fighters.

While we are at it, anybody know how many rounds did Allied fighters usually carry? I seem to recall it was 400 rounds,

thx for reply. now,one further question--or clarification--re:both planes. were the spend rounds contained on board or disposed of as fired.thx again.
perry

[Romani]

If you look closely, you will see metal guards over the ejection port of the MGs, to deflect spent cartridges that fell overboard. The germans had a scarcity of copper neccessary to make brass cases, but it wasn't worth the trouble keeping the spent cases onboard the airplane.

German airplanes used cloth belts for their MGs, (while the Allies used disintegrating metal link belts from 1917 onwards), the cloth belt after being fed through the weapon fell into the ammo bin, woud up in a spool.

romani
thx again.
perry

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Tugeeartist:
The projectile had copper jackets, and the cartridge case were made out of extruded brass. The cartridge cases were ejected over board be all combatants. Americans, British and French disentigrating metal belt links were ejected over board. Germans recovered their hemp web belts.
Germans used steel jackets on the bullet and extruded steel cases. Brass and copper were in critical shortage during the war.
blue skies,
Dan-San

[Ransom E. Olds]

With regard to the question of brass versus steel cartridge cases for aircraft MGs I think Romani is right here. Germany began the production of steel cartridge cases in 1916, but brass was never totally supplanted for this purpose. As far as I'm aware all special purpose 7.9 m/m ammo (tracer, AP, incendiary, explosive) was loaded into brass cases throughout the Great War. Ransom

[Romani]

Well, learned something new, I knew about steel casings for artillery, but I wasn't aware of small arms I thought if brass is used to begin with, steel would be unsuitable, hard to manufacture, or the weight would be excessive. On second thought, brass is denser than steel, so riddle me that. Perhaps steel casings have thicker walls and thus are heavier?

Why it's neccessary to have brass casings in the first place? I think it has something to do with pressures in the chamber and the casing explanding and acting as a seal for the gases, but what do I know...



I did some searching, and I found other sources that says the ammo load in the Dr I and the rest of German fighters were 550 rounds. I was inclined to think it was a mistake, because the standard fabric belt for the Maxim was 250 rounds, but the number keeps appearing.

So two possibilities:

a) The standard load per gun is 2 x 250 round belts linked and loaded inside the bin, plus an additional 50 round strip loaded into the gun

b) Aircraft didn't use standard belts, but a single continuous 550 round belt. This makes sense as linking cloth belts is not easy and could cause jams.

The Vickers machinegun also used 250 round fabric belts, but when the Allies switched to disintegrating metal links, they were no longer constrained by this, and it seems they carried 600 rounds, with the SE5a being a exception.

In this page http://www.australianflyingcorps.org...1/30/133319/56

it's said :

The SE5a carried between 550 and 735 rounds of ammunition for the two machine guns

and in other sources it says that the Vickers bin carried just 250 rounds, wich at the time the SE5 was designed in 1916 it was exactly the standard fabric belt for the Vickers, never mind that it was superseded later by metal links.
It's a small load, but there's no much room for it, and makes sense in view of the circumstances of the design. "No room for a Vickers and a lot of ammo, so let's slap a Lewis on top wich is more reliable anyway that this new synchronizer gadget" Given the problems with the first synchronizer gears used by the British until the Constantinesco arrived, it was a reasonable decision at the time.

Now, the later figure, only makes sense if 5 x 97 (485)drums are carried, one in the gun, 4 stowed: 250 Vickers + 485, but there seems to be only room for 1 drum on the Lewis and 2 on the cockpit!

See this thread

http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2327


Now, the lower figure makes sense, if only 3 x 97 drums are carried, that's
291 plus the 250 belt of the vickers, makes 541, so it seems the lower figure was rounded up. Still, it still comes across as short sighted or faulty design that only 250 rounds were provided for the Vickers, though the page says

Considering that most combat reports generally state that the pilot put between fifty and two hundred rounds into a downed aircraft, this was not so big a disadvantage.


Perhaps. But I am arriving to the conclusion that the problem with the SE5a was not so much being undergunned, because the Vickers/Lewis combo was pretty much equivalent in firepower to twin MGs, but rather being short on ammo. If the pilot was too triggerhappy, and given the difficulty of reloading the Lewis in combat, he was left with one MG and half the ammunition of its opponents.


So in conclusion:

German Fighters:
550 rounds per gun, 1100 total, fabric belts in one of the posted threads I've found this was the Parabellum belt, not the infantry belt.

Allied fighters: 600 rds, 1200 total, metal link belt, disintegrating.

SE5a: 250 rounds + 3 Lewis drums, 550 total


There's more to be added to this thread, like, why the Germans persisted with fabric belts despite its problems (weight considerations? lack of the raw materials to do the light alloy for the metal links) and comparing the Lewis and Parabellum observer guns, but is enough for today.

[Ransom E. Olds]

Romani: I can answer only part of your question. Brass is the best material for small arms cartridge cases because it's strong enough to resist combustion pressures and the stress of extraction after firing, while being springy enough to withdraw slightly from the chamber walls after the round is fired. It has the drawback of being produced largely from copper, sometimes in short supply. Steel is strong and cheap, but has the significant drawbacks of corrosion unless carefully rustproofed and, being less springy than brass, is stickier to extract. Steel also is harder on tooling. Germany produced much steel case 7.9 m/m in the Great War, and used steel almost exclusively in the second war, but in both wars used brass for cartridge cases in rifle-caliber aircraft MGs. Ransom

[Dave_Watts]

Hi Perry and Romani,

The Fokker Triplane, page 117, Imrie states for the Dr.I under "WEIGHT SCHEDULE"
"2 ammunition belts (500 cartridges each), 12.8kg each 25.6kg."

Imrie's information appears to be quoted from an "official" source.

Fokker Dr.I Triplane, page 221, Paul Leaman states, "The triplane's ammunition tanks could hold a total of some 650 rounds per gun, but to save weight, this amount was usually reduced to 500 rounds per weapon."

I have no idea where Leaman got this information.

I have researched the LMG 08 and LMG 08/15 in great detail and have contended that the universal ammunition belt for the German air service was the two-rivet "Parabellum" belt. Certainly there were other belts and systems utilized, but from my research the vast majority of belts utilized for German fighter aircraft were the narrow two-rivet belt.

The "trench" style wide three rivet Maxim belt with standoff tabs was, from my observations, utilized with the LMG 08's or LMG 08/15's when fitted to; training aircraft, "home" defence fighters, seaplanes, bombers, zeppelins, and non-fighter frontline aircraft. From what I've seen on Austrian aircraft they utilize the "trench" belt as well. It is also possible to see the narrow two-rivet belt utilized with the above craft, but it would be the exception, not the norm. Commonly the "trench" style belt is a 250 round belt. I don't know if there is a longer version of this belt, but my guess is they simply utilized the regular old 250 round belt.

Of course, whenever the LMG Parabellum was utilized they only used the narrow two-rivet belt.

From Neal O'Connor's Volume VI Aviation Awards of Imperial Germany in WWI, page 200 we have a great shot of loading the ammo for a Fokker Eindecker carrying an LMG 08. You can clearly see the narrow two-rivet belt. I've tried to count most of the rounds in the belt and calculate it to be between 550 - 600, or possibly more. Of interest, if you look closely between the gents feet on the ground you can see what may be another ammo belt still spooled up and standing up on the ends of the rounds. Or possibly a flying helmet?



Next is a good photo to show the two rivet belt utilized on a Dr.I.



Lastly, from Imrie's Triplane book, the F.I 101/17.



I could cite many more photos, but this should convince you. To recap the narrow two-rivet belt, today commonly referred to as the "Parabellum" belt, should in my opinion be termed as the "universal ammunition belt" for German fighter aircraft as well as for LMG Parabellums.

Best,
Dave W.