Midair crash

Westerman · 3 April 2006, 07:32 PM

Below is photo that appears to be midair crash. Looking up possible serial numbers in "British Military Aircraft Serials" by Bruce Robertson, there appears to be only two choices for make of aircraft. I'm pretty sure the one on left is a Bristol F.2B and not a DH.6. Onlooker appears to be German?

Anyone know more about this event?

Westerman · 3 April 2006, 07:47 PM

William Frederick James "Jim" Harvey flew C776
http://www.theaerodrome.com/aces/england/harvey.html

George Everard Gibbons flew C779
http://www.theaerodrome.com/aces/england/gibbons2.html

ONEALM · 3 April 2006, 10:01 PM

The aircraft to the right - what's left - looks an awful lot like a Camel to me - turtle deck stipped off, but the fuel tank, foot step and seat suggest it. Looks like the souvenir hunters got to it.

Also not convinced - in spite of the partial serial # - that the left hand aircraft is a Brisfit. The elevator control horns look too far inboard to my untrained eye. I don't have a good three view drawing of the airplane to compare against either,so may be off, but the tailplane looks too stubby to me.

The left a/c too has it's airleron horns on the third rib from the wing tip and the airleron appears to be 6 ribs long - that's Camel-like.

I'm not sure I understand the geometry of the tail feathers of the left aircraft. The rudder does look like it's upside-down - hinged to the front, but the tail plane, I would expect to be buff underneath, not the dark PC10 I see. Possible it's completely detached and just laying on top of the tailplane I suppose.

Pressed for a guess - I'd have to say two Camels.

Westerman · 3 April 2006, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ONEALM

The left a/c too has it's airleron horns on the third rib from the wing tip and the airleron appears to be 6 ribs long - that's Camel-like.

The wings at far left are from the right aircraft. If the right aircraft is a Camel, then it would reason they would look like Camel wings. About all that is visable of left aircraft is elevator ond rudder.

I agree, the tailplane looks Camelish.

Westerman · 4 April 2006, 12:00 AM

Lets assume rudder and elevator are right side up. The serial number could be X223 or XX223. After looking at close up it very well could be.

With curvature of letter or number previous to the first 2, it appears it could be a [B, C, D, 3, 5, 6, 8 or 9]. Possible combinations follow:

B223 - FK.8

B3223 - Avro 504J
B5223 - Sopwith 1F.1 Camel
B6223 - Sopwith 1F.1 Camel
B8223 - (rebuilt aircraft B8223 not listed)
B9223 - Sopwith 1F.1 Camel

C223 - Sopwith Pup

C3223 - BE.12
C5223 - DH.6
C6223 - DH.9
C8223 - Sopwith 1F.1 Camel
C9223 - SE.5a

D223 - SE.5a

D3223 - DH.9
D5223 - Sopwith F5.1 Dolphin
D6223 - Avro 504K
D8223 - Sopwith 1F.1 Camel
D9223 - FE.2b

E223 - RE.8

E3223 - SE.5a
E5223 - Bristol F.2B
E6223 - Sopwith 7F.1 Snipe
E8223 - Sopwith 7F.1 Snipe
E9223 - Avro 504K

F223 - DH.9 (not built)

F3223 - Sopwith 1F.1 Camel
F5223 - Sopwith 1F.1 Camel
F6223 - Sopwith 1F.1 Camel
F8223 - Handley Page V/1500
F9223 - Vickers Vimy

Assuming it is a Camel and tailplane is upright. Eight possibilities exist.

B5223, B6223, B9223, C8223, D8223, F3223, F5223 and F6223

Westerman · 4 April 2006, 12:17 AM

Using theaerodrome.com serial number database, I find the following:

B5223 Sopwith Camel 66 Squadron Hilliard Bell (He survived the war. I can't imagine either pilot surviving)

D8223 S.E.5a 84 Squadron Cecil Wilson / Sgt. C.M.A. Mahon (this conflicts with Robertson's book)

--

Googling I found this http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/fo...howtopic=36723

Capt T W Nash DFC was flying Sopwith Camel D9608 of No 204 Sqn RAF when he was killed in action on 23 October 1918. D9608 was one of five Camels from No 204 Sqn lost while on a High Offensive Patrol that left at 0830 that day. The patrol was involved in combat with 12 enemy aircraft over Termonde and as well as Capt Nash, Sgt C M A Mahon in D8223, Lt O J Orr in D9613, Lt F G Bayley in E4420 and 2Lt G Sutcliffe USAS in F3101 were all killed in action. The enemy machines were from Marinefeldjasta 1.

Graeme · 4 April 2006, 12:41 AM

D8223 was a Camel. It went to No 204 Squadron on 1 August 1918 and was lost on 23 October when Sgt Mahon was killed in action.

Graeme

Westerman · 4 April 2006, 12:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graeme

D8223 was a Camel. It went to No 204 Squadron on 1 August 1918 and was lost on 23 October when Sgt Mahon was killed in action.

Graeme

It appears the www.theaerodrome.com serial number database has a mistake.

Graeme · 4 April 2006, 03:13 AM

Westerman

I imagine the source for D8223 is Above The Trenches, but is definitely incorrect. I think the serial should be B8233 since this SE5a was with No 84 Squadron from March to June 1918, so could have been flown by Cecil Wilson when he claimed his first victory on 28 May. Thus far, I've nothing that connects him with the SE5, so no proof-positive I'm afraid.

Graeme

margaret smith · 4 April 2006, 04:16 AM

Westerman, where did you get this picture?