greentail's Jasta

[alex_revell]

Although it was written some years ago now, I’m still reasonably happy that my conclusions in High In The Empty Blue that the Flight of Albatri led by ‘Greentail’, that 56 Sqdn patrols were meeting in late 1917 and early 1918, were from Jasta 5. and that Greentail was most probably Konnecke.
However, there is an anomaly here. McCudden described these Albatri as all having different coloured tails – red, light blue, black, yellow, black and white striped, and ‘Greentail’. It now seems to be accepted that at the time in question Jasta 5 aeroplanes all had green tails. I once asked Bowman about this question of the coloured tails and although he couldn’t remember the actual colours he confirmed that they were all different. He asked me why I asked the question. When I told him the reason he said.‘If Mac said that’s what the colours were, then that’s what they were’. McCudden was known for being a very accurate observer, a fact impressed upon me by many of the pilots who served with him and Charles, the 56 Sqdn Engineering officer. Bowman also told me that they recognised Greentail by his flying and the way he led his Flight as much as by the colour of his tail.
I have the impression – and I may be mistaken – that the information that Jasta 5 aeroplanes all had green tails comes from Hippel, and Hippel alone. At the time I was researching the question I obviously thought that photographs of Jasta 5 would help solve the riddle but both Alex Imrie and Ed Ferko told me that they had no photos showing lineups of Jasta 5 aeroplanes for the time in question ie. the winter of 1917/18. All the lineup photos, which appear to show all the tails green with the red edging, seem to be from the summer of 1917. But again, photos of individual Albatri in 1918 seem to show greentails.
If Greentail was not Konnecke of Jasta 5, then who was he and what Jasta Flight was he leading. 56 Sqdn moved to Lavieville on Nov 12 1917 and the first sighting of Greentail was on the morning of Nov 23. At the time that the squadron moved to Lavieville the only Jasta in the area was Jasta 5, with JG1 moving down into the area on Nov 22 and flying their first patrols in the afternoon of Nov 23. (JIFH)
Some years ago Dr Bock sent me extracts from the flying log of Mai between Nov 23 1917 and Jan 30 1918. Out of the nine flights by Mai in this period only three coincide with 56 sightings of Greentail, but of course, other patrols were flown by Jasta 5 pilots during the time in question. The combat on Jan 30 1918, when Junor shot down Bruno Justinus, the acting Staffelfuhrer of Jasta 35b while Hanstein was on leave, matches exactly for time and location the entry in Mai’s logbook.
It’s a puzzle. Does anyone have any thoughts on it.

My thoughts are that the true memory of 'the men who were there and did it ' is what we hopefully seek to preserve all these years after the event. If they said that the aircraft of Jasta 5 that they encountered all had different-coloured tails, I'd be very reluctant to contradict them in favour of any historian who says otherwise, unless said historian has irrefutable proof to back him up. Particularly McCudden, who was one of the brightest men ever to wear an RFC uniform - and an experienced Observer before he became a pilot, and so used to taking careful note of fine details while flying.

One thing that occurs to me is that in the heat of action, an encounter with Jasta 5 must have been kaleidoscopic, with all that colour flying about! And that all aircraft seen at a distance appear usually as small black dots until they're only a few hundred yards away; bold colours being helpful in identifying the pilots in a particular formation to each other and a personal 'statement' and morale-booster, rather than intended to impress an enemy.

Keep up the good work, Alex - cheers!

(8:¬)}

Simba.

[Rick]

Well, we know the British launched the Battle of Cambrai on 20Nov17 against the German 2nd Army. We further know that Jasta 5 was the only Jasta in the 2nd Army, until the arrival of JG I. Ergo, Jasta 5 sounds correct. We may argue over who was 'K', but I'm with you Alex, I lean strongly toward Koennecke. Now did all of Jasta 5 have green tails ???????? Beats me! (Just padding, Vin) Rick

[Ginger.]

This has baffled me since the very first time I ever read it.The description of Greentail's mob is so precise as to brook no argument from us chairbound warriors as to what Mac's Flight saw that day.His description of Greentail's other markings are generally accepted as correct,but we then go on to doubt his observation of red,black,blue and yellow tailed aircraft?

[Brad]

I wonder if Dan San can shed some light on this? It certainly goes against the "commonly accepted" information... but so do a few other things that Dan San has been able to clear up.

Brad

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Brad:
* *The green tails on Jasta 5 aircraft were instituted by Oblt Richard Flashar when or shortly after he became the Jastaführer of Jasta on 10 June 1917. All the aircraft were marked with the red nose, grey fuselage and green empennages with the red banding and the white inverted chevron on the upper wing.
In the case of Konnecke's Alb.D.V the fuselage was painted green. Personal markings were painted on both sides of the fuselage aft of the cockpit and forward of the fuselage cross. *This Jasta /personal form of markings continued until Jasta 5 received the Fok.DR.I from Jasta 11 in May 1918. There is ample photographic proof of this statement, and that has been published. I believe that Ltn. Wilhelm Lehmann did not set up a specific Jasta marking scheme while he was in command of Jasta 5. New Jasta markings were established under Oblt. Otto Schmidt when Jasta 5 received the Fok. D.VII, dark colored nose and empennage, however, I do not know what the colors are.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *Blue Skies,
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Dan-San

Hi

OK, OK, McCudden was my boyhood hero. I mean, gearhead as fighterpilot! Perfect.
Look, I dunno if McCudden was perfect. What I have done in MY lifetime is seen the gun camera films of current fighter pilots, and the same Report by the crew. It commonly happens that the shooter gets all sorts of things wrong. This is why we often have friendlies shot down by friendlies.

R

[Ginger.]

And your point is.???

[StephenLawson]

Friends, Devotees and Enthusiasts lend me your ears. I would like to put forth my 2 cents, for your ponderance and consideration:

To a fighter pilot, anything behind him/ the cockpit is often described as being on the "Tail." Jasta 5 Albatros fuselages were certainly - if anything, multicolored. If Konnecke flew the green fuselage Albatros D.V we see him photographed with? If Konnecke in deed according to photographic evidence flew the only D.V with a green fuselage and empannage? Then the green tail description stands up in the light of all consideration. Your humble servant STL

Long Live the Middle Guard !!!!!

Once again, we're confounded by the fact that very few photographs of early aircraft - or any other contemporary subjects, for that matter - were taken on colour stock. And that differing monochrome emulsions produced radically different results from identical colours. Orthochromatic or Panchromatic? What was the light level at the time? The background? The photo's provenance?

The result is that the best sources of historic aircraft colours are all-too-rare painted samples, compared with known paint specifications and airmen's accounts of the aircraft they encountered during their careers. RFC/RNAS PC10/12 is easy (-ish) to ascertain (what a staid lot we Brits were!), but Hun kites?!

Indeed, there's considerable doubt about the colours of more recent aircraft. I'm presently researching colour data for the Imperial Japanese Navy aircraft that attacked Pearl Harbor; and almost certainly the main colour that WASN'T used was the hitherto 'ubiquitous' light grey so favoured by generations of modellers since that 'day of infamy'. The only relics extant seem to be B5N2 and 'Val' bits that bear a distinctly solid 'light brown' or 'caramel' colour over a bright red primer. And there ain't any contemporary colour footage or photos to confirm one or t'other . . .

It's a minefield out there, folks, but it's well worth stepping into, in the hunt for true history; a fascinating search that leads who-knows-where.

Cheers!

(8:¬)}

Simba.