How many Lewis drums in a SE5a?

The SE5a is certainly one of the best-known of Great War scouts, yet I'm still trying to fathom out how many drums could be carried for the over-wing Lewis gun.

J.M. Bruce is of the opinion that five 97-round drums were carried (Windsock Datafile SE5a Special, et al). My research indicates that pilots signed for up to five drums before take-off, sometimes only three or four; perhaps reflecting the altitude/endurance expected to be achieved on the particular type of sortie undertaken?

Particularly puzzling to me is where the space was found to carry the spare drums. One on the gun, and another in a holder on the upper starboard side of the instrument dashboard are clearly evident, but close study of the interior of surviving aircraft reveals just how snug the cockpit was for the pilot and therefore cramped for stowage space. Elevator and rudder cable runs under the seat preclude any stowage there, and there's sufficient room under the dashboard for the pilot's legs and little more. The tailplane trimming wheel is on the left-hand side of the seat, and there's not much space between either side of the pilot's backside and hips and the cockpit sides to squeeze 'em in - and the cockpit upper sides sloping inwards towards a heavily-clothed pilot must have led to some struggles to reload as he hauled the new drum out.

Old photos show that the drums weren't carried externally a la DH2. Unfortunately, King's Regulations were pretty strict on prohibiting detailed pictures of aircraft internals and the cameras of the time weren't usually suited to such work. Consequently, the best such photos are, ironically, often those taken by the Germans of aircraft captured by them - and none that I've managed to see clearly show the ammo stowage arrangements. Unauthorised publication of details or pictures of military aircraft was a criminal offence in the UK during the war years, hence the paucity of British types descibed in 'Jane's' over that period. And the handful of original airframes surviving aren't all that original after rebuilds, etc.

Hence my continuing to scratch me tired ol' head. Anyone out there who can solve the puzzle?

Cheers!

(8:¬)}

Simba.

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Simba:
There were three according to the parts list, 1. on the Lewis gun. 2. in a container on top of the instrument board. 3. On the floor,was a wood container, centered and bracketed to the rear spar tube, forward of the stick. I can't imagine a fourth drum stowed, least wise a fifth!
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[leo]

I don't think that I would want to have to change drums in the middle of a fight.

I don't think that I would want to have to change drums in the middle of a fight.

Hopefully , you'd have had some rounds in the Vickers to CYA until you had the chance to reload the Lewis. If not, then the screaming dive out of the fight was probably the best strategy!

[Barrett]

Gotta agree with Dan-San (again!) The SE in which I've logged some hangar time is an extremely accurate repro, and there simply is not enough room for more than 2 drums in the cockpit.
It'd be interesting to know if there was a preferred method of managing the Lewis ammo supply. In practical pistol terms, a "speed" reload (pitch the empty overboard) versus a tactical reload (exchange the empty in the rack for the spare).

*It'd be interesting to know if there was a preferred method of managing the Lewis ammo supply. *In practical pistol terms, a "speed" reload (pitch the empty overboard) versus a tactical reload (exchange the empty in the rack for the spare).

Speed reload, LMAO! I want to see the true "tactical" reload, where the partially filled drum is removed and held under the pinky of the shooting hand while the full drum is loaded, then the partial drum is returned to the rack.

Seriously though, with 3 drums on board you have 1 on the gun, and 2 in a rack which I assume can only accommodate 2 drums. At some point during a normal reload you would have to be juggling 2 drums, unless you just dumped the empty drum overboard. What was the proper procedure for a reload? It's a bit hard to fly a plane when you need 2 hands to reload your weapon. ???

[Mark_Miller]

Simba:
* * * There were three according to the parts list, 1. on the Lewis gun. 2. in a container on top of the instrument board. 3. On the floor,was a wood container, centered and bracketed to the rear spar tube, forward of the stick. I can't imagine a fourth drum stowed, least wise a fifth!
* * * * * * * * * *Blue skies,
* * * * * * * * * * * Dan-San

Pictiures of the floor mounted drum holder can be seen in "RAF SE5a" Windsock Datafile #10, pgs 24 and 25.

It's just a guess, but it looks to me like you could mount more holders on either side of it.
Only thing that might be a problem is the rudder bar - they might interfear with it's range of motion. But I can't tell for sure from the photos.
I could get a better idea via my virtual SE5a model.
or, at least be able to tell if it's possible.
One of these days I'll go back and finish/fix that model :

Mark

[leo]

Could the lewis been adapted or was it ever adapted for belt feed?

Thanks for the info, gen'lemen, much appreciated. Where can I possibly get hold of that parts list, Dan? I can never find out enough about the SE5/5a to sate me curiosity!

Re: belt-feed on the Lewis. Such an arrangement WAS developed -

" by Flight Sergeant Fitzgerald of No.1 Sqn RFC . . . [but] since one of the principal advantages of the gun was its handiness, due in some measure to the fact that no belt was used and the gun well-balanced, this idea did proceed further, even for ground use . . ."

('Early Aircraft Armament: the Aeroplane and the Gun up to 1918' by Harry Woodman, 1989, Arms and Armour Press, London, ISBN 0-85368-990-3. The best single-volume treatment of WW1 guns, mountings and ammunition available, IMO; very enlightening, particularly as to the reasons for the Lewis' popularity as an air weapon).

Reloading wasn't quite so hard as people might think; provided the pilot had time in combat to do it, of course. The over-wing Foster mount for the RFC Lewis incorporated a steel spring, later supplemented or superseded by Sandow bungee-cord, attached to the front of the mounting and running inside it back to a rear attachment on the slide bearing the gun. The pilot disengaged the Lewis' forward clip by pulling on a Bowden cable, then grasped the spade grip and pulled the gun back and down along the track, thus tensioning the spring/cord, which was guided over a pulley fixed to the lower rear of the mounting in front of the track quadrant. Releasing the empty magazine and substituting a full one for it took a few seconds only if hands were skilled and not made clumsy by cold and/or altitude - a big 'if', granted, which is why the handling strap on Lewis drums got bigger and stronger with time - then the gun was either fired from the lowered position or pushed back up along the track and relocked in the forward-firing position with the assistance of the spring/cord's tension.

Carrying out the operation while flying a steady SE5/5a with its 'Farnborough dihedral' must have compared favourably with doing it on more skittish contemporary scouts like the Nieuports, and if THEY could do it . . . !

Belt-feed wasn't all it was cracked up to be, y'know - cheers!

(8;¬)}

Simba.

Typo Erratum - Sergeant Fitzgerald's idea did NOT proceed further.

Doh!

(8;¬)}

Simba.