Georges Guynemer

Hi,
I'd like to know if there's any description of the famous battle between Georges Guynemer and Ernst Udet in 1917 by Guynemer. There's known decription by Udet. But by Guynemer? I haven't found it at any web page yet. And I can't believe that Guynemer didn't speak about it, because it must have been very strong feeling both for him and Udet.

[Executioner128]

Hi Honza

No Report of Guynemer whatsoever, indeed, it's strange, I can't remember the exact date, but I think this is also due to the fact that Udet was not such a star yet as guynemer was, I think Udet grew more famous in 1918, so it is obvious that Udet was the happy survivor of this fight, and that Guynemer was not 'interviewed' , because he had already fought out more dangerous battles...

[Executioner128]

just forget to add a remark:

A beautiful statue to his honour stands here in Belgium, West Flanders, Poelkapelle, you can see it here:

http://www.langemark-poelkapelle.be/...21b69aea4b2592

Probably a lot of people here will be interested in the text, therefore I will (BRIEFLY) summarize the first paragraph.

The Guynemer monument, designed by architect Hendrickx and sculptor Wolfers on July 8th, 1923, to the honour of Guynemer who crashed here with his plane on September 7th, 1917. It is possible that his remains were found and burried by the Germans, but there's not enough evidence for this. At the top of the statue stands a bronze stork, its wings spread down and the head turned eastward, where the enemy came from. The bird itself refers to The 3rd Escadrille, of which he was a member. Previously, there used to be an annual memorial service, in which also French war veterans took part.

The rest of the page is dedicated to his life, and the fight with Udet.

Sorry for eventual mistakes

Kind regards

[Russell Smith]

Originally Posted by Executioner128

Hi Honza

No Report of Guynemer whatsoever, indeed, it's strange, I can't remember the exact date, but I think this is also due to the fact that Udet was not such a star yet as guynemer was, I think Udet grew more famous in 1918, so it is obvious that Udet was the happy survivor of this fight, and that Guynemer was not 'interviewed' , because he had already fought out more dangerous battles...

No one knows the exact date of this encounter, but best guess is that it occured sometime around June of '17.

In addition to Udet's relative obscurity at the time one should also keep in mind that Guynemer was more than likely flying his SPAD VII S254 marked with his "Vieux" (notice the "Charles" had not been added yet), the red stork of N3 and a couple of big red "2"s emblazoned across the top wing - a fairly distinct and recognizable aircraft on the front. Udet, on the other hand, was probably flying a non-descript Albatros at the time. He probably had not begun marking his aircraft with the famous "LO" yet.

The point is Udet would have recognized Guynemer's aircraft and knew whom he was pitted against. However, even if Udet had been a well known name on the front at that time, Guynemer probably would not have recognized him due to his indistinct machine that day. My guess is that as far as Guynemer was concerned the man he flew against that day was just another German. Another day at the office, so to speak.

http://www.russellsmithart.com/Small...mtheMaster.htm

russ

[Executioner128]

Originally Posted by Russell Smith

No one knows the exact date of this encounter, but best guess is that it occured sometime around June of '17.

In addition to Udet's relative obscurity at the time one should also keep in mind that Guynemer was more than likely flying his SPAD VII S254 marked with his "Vieux" (notice the "Charles" had not been added yet), the red stork of N3 and a couple of big red "2"s emblazoned across the top wing - a fairly distinct and recognizable aircraft on the front. Udet, on the other hand, was probably flying a non-descript Albatros at the time. He probably had not begun marking his aircraft with the famous "LO" yet.

The point is Udet would have recognized Guynemer's aircraft and knew whom he was pitted against. However, even if Udet had been a well known name on the front at that time, Guynemer probably would not have recognized him due to his indistinct machine that day. My guess is that as far as Guynemer was concerned the man he flew against that day was just another German. Another day at the office, so to speak.

http://www.russellsmithart.com/Small...mtheMaster.htm

russ

Yes that was exactly what I meant

[retread]

Although I am not adding to the thread's original Udet vs. Guynemer theme I will post here because of the thread's title, keeping the eggs in one basket.
I have recently finished reading "Guynemer- The Ace of Aces" by Jacques Mortaine. Published during the war it is a combination of valuable facts and gushing propaganda. Some of the former are (I suspect) contained "between the lines".
In 1917 Guynemer flew progressively less and less. In July he flew a total of seven days and was pulled from the front and hospitalized with what Mortane attributed as "some kind of poisoning". I have read that Guynemer was deteriorating physically and mentally (read: nervous system) because of his refusal to allow himself a respite. Although I have never seen particulars or supporting information of this I suspect it is true. Any hard info out there?
Was Guynemer suffering from some mysterious ailment or combat fatigue?
Thanks

[Barrett]

I cannot add anything substantive, but some of the film of Guynemer (apparently in latter 1917) seem to show a young man approaching his limit. He appears thinner than before with sunken eyes that occasionally have that "thousand meter stare" common to combat fatigue. Whether he actually said he expected to add the Wooden Cross to his collection, he certainly gives that anticipation in some footage..

[retread]

A number of people who dealt personally with Guynemer commented on the intensity of his gaze.The photographs that I have seen would seem to support that it was developed over the period of his aerial combat. The early photographs of him make him appear half puppy, half unmade bed.In later photos he usually resembles a poster for the French officer corp and the wildness in his eyes often burned right into the negative.

Regarding the date of Udet's reported duel with Guynemer- In his book "Mein Fliegerleben" Udet does not give an exact date. However, he does place it chronologically immediately before Staffelfuhrer Heinrich Gottermann (Jasta 15) returned from leave. That date is given as June 19th.
This corresponds with what Jacques Mortaine records of Guynemer's flying during that month. Working directly from Guynemer's log he recorded that Guynemer flew only from the third to the sixth and the fifteenth through the eighteenth. The later dovetailing nicely with Udet's chronallogy.

Hi friends
And what about "Vieux" inscribe on the Spad's fuselage? Had Guynemer really written first "Vieux" to his Spad before he met Udet and then changed it to Vieux Charles? Some people say it maybe was not Guynemer that day. I do not believe it, but If it would be true who else could it be? Was there any Fench pilot flying only "Vieux" Spad?
Honza

[retread]

Honza,
My copy of Udet's book is an English translation. Which may be inexact, not tranlate well or both as compared to the German edition. That being said Udet claimed to have recognized the word "Vieux" during one of a number of flybys resulting as the two aircraft approached head to head. Figure on a combined airspeed of close to or in excess of 200 mph. The inscription on Guynemer's Spad must have been recognizable for only a fraction of a second and it doesn't necessarily mean that "Vieux" was the only part of Guynemer's slogan that was painted on the side of the aircraft at that time. What it does mean is that it was all that Udet either saw or perhaps needed to see to know who the competition was.
I feel the chances are excellent that it was Guynemer simply based on the sheer volume of the combats the Frenchman engaged in when he was flying.He was extremely aggressive and attacked every German aircraft he saw whether the odds were one to one or one to six. He once recorded eight combats in one day, all inconclusive.As observered earler in this thread Guynemer put tremendous stress on himself by allowing no excuse to fail to accept combat. With the exception of engine or weapons failure.