Crash Photos

Has anybody ever thought of making a data base of identifiable crashed aircraft photos, often (as here) last seen by the enemy and the literal Last Moments that next of kin back home never, ever knew about?

This was taken by an Unteroffizier in Pionier Bataillon 17 (36. Infanterie Division) who sent photos home to his fiancée using postcard sized photos as stationery...

my Bulgarian friend Theodor (the internet is amazing) says this was

RFC 60th Squadron Moraine-Saulnier BB "5181," shot down from an altitude of 11,000 feet on 2 August 1916 by German antiaircraft fire (not by the two pilot NCOs among the pioneers and Feldgendarmes), killing crew of 18 year old 2nd Lt. Lyonel Latimer Clark and 22 year old Sergeant Alexander Walker.

[Soderbaum]

Hi Rick

This Morane was actually confirmed as the 13th victory of Lt Kurt Wintgens...
I think that it also exist other similar photos of the crash...!?
Another Morane (5177) was brought down by Frankl in the same combat..

However, two other British a/c were brought down German Flak this day. In Jankes book there is a photo of one of them. The second which was brought down by German Flak apparently fell in allied lines...

A database of crash photos would be a VERY GOOD idea, because of the thousands of un-identfied photos circling around....
In reality a great many of these could be identified, or are already identified...


Gunnar

[Graeme]

On 2 August 1916, possible losses to German anti-aircraft fire were:

Nieuport 11 3990, No 4 Wing RNAS, Flt Lt R G A Baudry (Kia), N Ypres
BE2c 2616, No 5 Sqn RFC, Capt C W Snook (Pow), Ledeghem
Morane BB 5181, 60 RFC, Sgt A Walker (Kia) + 2nd Lt L L Clark (Kia), Poeuilly
Morane BB 5177, 60 RFC, Lt J A N Ormsby (Pow; Dow) + 2nd Lt H J Newton (Wia; Dow), Poeuilly

I have seen Wintgens' claim (south of Peronne) associated with the loss of Ormsby and Newton.

Graeme

[Soderbaum]

Hi Graeme

In the "original" photo of Morane 5181 you could see Wintgens standing alongside the a/c*. The photo/card by Rick is probably an half-official "Sanke" variant sold to soldiers......by some strange reason they have cut away Wintgens, perhaps due to fit the postcard-format...

*If I remember correct you can see original (with Wintgens) photo here on the Forum. I think that the "real" photo is in the Imrie collection....

Also there exist a photo of Frankl standing beside Morane 5177...so what about the nonsense that the Moranes were brought down by Flak...?


Gunnar

[Graeme]

Gunnar

As reported in RFC Communique No 46:

Sgt A Walker and 2nd Lt L L Clark, missing, believed killed by A.A. fire
Lt J A N Ormsby and 2nd Lt H J Newton, missing - A.A. fire

The Moranes were both at 11,000 feet over Poeuilly when they came under anti-aircraft fire. One was reported to have received a direct hit and come down in a spin, west-north-west of St Quentin, with the observer falling from the machine. The second machine crashed, with the pilot succumbing to his injuries on 5 August.

Wintgens was in action south of Peronne and Frankl at Beaumetz. At present I can't say whether these locations are close to Poeuilly and St Quentin. Neither do I have the times of either Wintgens' or Frankl's combats so can't say whether they mesh with the 16:00 take-off time for the two Moranes. Did either German pilot mention a combat on this date in which one of the enemy crew fell from their machine?

But, as for photographs of a pilot beside a crashed aeroplane....... just 'cos he's there, don't mean he shot it down.

Anyway, must go - we're off to the Summer Fete at the school where my wife teaches. Typically, it has just started to rain!

Grey skies from soggy south-east England.

Graeme

[Soderbaum]

Ok Graeme

Let say it this way: The German daily report (Heeresberichte) did report these two victories by Wintgens and Frankl. Frankls victory is reported at 18:30 but I dont have the time for Wintgens victory. Frankl perhaps landed alongside his victim, as his victory report did not catch the "breaking" time for the daily reports and was reported a day later...
No victories were reported by German Flak in this area*, whatever "Comic Cuts" (RAF Com) reported.
However, it was very common that Flak fire were the first to fire on e/a, it was also the "signal" which led the German a/c to the location...

*The two victories claimed German Flak were Capt Snook from 5 sq who was brought at Boesinghe by Hptm Janke as his 5th victory...
The second brought by Flak occurred N Arras and was probably an a/c from 7 sq RFC...

The British Naval pilot (Baudry) was brought down in combat, and possible by a crew from FFA 6. However I dont knew by whom, perhaps one of their pilots which later went over to Jasta 8...?....anyone knews...?

What would the reason be for Wintgens and Frankl to pose alongside these wrecks if they not have brought them down...??


Gunnar

[Graeme]

Gunnar

The RFC Communiques did not report German Flak victories, just the loss of an RFC aeroplane, its crew and, if information was available, the suggested reason - combat, anti-aircraft fire etc.

So if returning pilots, balloon observers or anti-aircraft batteries reported seeing Allied aircraft under anti-aircraft fire and an aeroplane operating in the appropriate area failed to return, the connection was made. If German aircraft also participated but were not observed or reported, the natural conclusion would be fire from the ground rather than aerial combat.

Accordingly, while The Sky Their Battlefield, "Royal Navy Aircraft Serial and Units" and the RFC Communique ascribe Baudry's loss to anti-aircraft fire (Nieuport 11 3990 hit by anti-aircraft fire 4 miles north of Ypres), this is not to say that German aircraft were not attracted to the area by the anti-aircraft fire and also fired at the Nieuport, simply that this fact was not noted in British records.

If evidence exists that shows that Baudry was actually shot down and killed in combat with a crew from FFA 6 (or any other unit), then I'm happy enough to re-ascribe his loss.

I sometimes feel that the various reports made by opposing forces are a bit like reading eye-witness accounts of the same event - 12 witnesses, 12 different versions of what happened. Accordingly, none is completely in error and none is completely accurate but by analysing each, the actual (or most probable) sequence of events can be determined - much as we are doing now.

Back to 2 August 1916:

From RFC Communique No 46:

At 11:30 a.m., six B.E.s and three Morane biplanes on the 2nd Brigade started to attack the Zeppelin sheds at Brussels. One B.E. failed to get its height. The machines came under heavy A.A. fire at Ledeghem, and one machine apparently hit, turned west and is missing. Pilot, Capt Snook of 5 Sqn.

I was not aware of a matching German claim and haven't seen Janke listed as an "ace". However, the RFC report simply states that his machine had "apparently" been hit by anti-aircraft fire, not that this was definitely the cause of his loss.

The No 7 Squadron machine was BE2c 2753 crewed by 2nd Lt Tagent and Capt MaCallum, neither of whom was hurt. The BE2 suffered damage and was forced to land; this was timed at 17:55 (British time). The squadron was part of II Brigade and was then based at Warloy Baillon, south west of Ypres.

Finally

What would the reason be for Wintgens and Frankl to pose alongside these wrecks if they not have brought them down...??

To confuse latter-day researchers!

It is most likely a pilot photographed beside the wreckage of a aeroplane had actually just brought it down, but it has to accepted that the "victorious" pilot was merely an interested bystander (two people in the photographs taken on my wedding day are of people unknown to anyone in my or wife's families).

Oh well, off to do a BBQ in the rain! Mad dogs and ........

Graeme

[Soderbaum]

Thanks Graeme

With your information about the BE 2c from 7 sq RFC we can rule out the possibility that this is the e/a claimed by German Flak North of Arras..

Hope that your BBQ evening will end up luckily...!...The weather in Sweden has also been bad today, but at the moment the sun is shining...


Gunnar

Ah, NOW you've all confused me:

So let's see, about 83 people all claimed the same victory?

Anyway, if there is ANOTHER shot of this crash, it wouldn't surprise me. But this is an original, made in the field print, not a commercial postcard, and taken either BY my Unteroffizier Oetzmann, or by somebody in his unit, the 17th Pioneers.

Notice the rather paunchy fellow visible from the knees up to the left of the "5181" above, and the thin, mustachio'd "Crown Prince" type between the two pilots above?

They were officers from the 17th Pioneers, as are the enlisted men with the dark cap bands. (Probably called in to take away the debris).

I have these same officers in other photos from Oetzmann's album: posing proudly in an enormous mine crater and so on, completely unrelated to anything aviation. Pioneer unit photos.

Likewise, the late great WW1 aviation photo expert Ed Ferko was wildly excited by the Oetzmann photo below, which I gather shows Kissenberth's final victory. I've cropped it a bit (always mindful of image piracy), but he told me that this exact view WAS issued as a Sanke postcard. This is NOT a Sanke postcard. (Obviously Herr S must have bought other people's photos, rather the way TV news does with home videos these days, and issued them commercially under his name, when not studio portraits, eh?)

Notice, again, Paunchy Officer far right, Feldgendarme between him and "Crown Prince." And the pioneers brought in to clean up the mess. Ed was very keen for me to sell him this, just before he died, but my interest then (as now) was not with aviation, but in the entirety of this group. The young fellow sent his fiancée EVERYTHING-- blowing things up (1, 2, 3...), skinny dipping buddies, even a shot of him and his pals drinking. I know he survived the war (as did all his buddies, miraculously, even infantrymen) and he and the Girl Of His Dreams are having their wedding supper at the end of this album surrounded by said chums, so I hope they had long and happy lives together-- obviously soulmates from pre-WW1 teens (school prom photos etc).

(EDIT: OOPS! Not KISSENBERTH-- WINTGENS-- see my next post. Sorry! )

[Soderbaum]

Hi Rick

Kissenberths last victory was scored on 16 May 18, I am unsure if it was an SE 5 or a Sopw-C...??
I also dont knew for sure if it came down in "German" lines or allied lines...??

However it is very interesting photo which I dont think I have seen before....can anyone identify the aircraft...?

Anyone knew which Sanke card (nr ?) which was used ..?


Gunnar