victory over a sopwith triplane

gregoire · 4 March 2005, 01:06 AM

This question was asked on a french speaking forum

on the 3rd of sep 1917 french pilot of QM Le Garrec of the french naval squadron CAM Dunkerque/St Pol was shoot down and killed. the action took place near Dixmute. He was flying the sopwith triplane N5388 with squadron code F15

The only claim against a french triplane is by vfw ALTEMIER (jasta 24) but it was on the 26 of the month and not in the same area

any idea who may have been the german pilot

Thank you

Gregoire

Volker_Nemsch · 4 March 2005, 04:39 AM

For this day I found the following data in " The Jasta War Chronology ":

03. September 1917

3 "Triplanes" shot down
- by Ltn. K. Hammes of Jasta 32, at 9.55 SE of Essen
- by Ltn. A. v. Schönebeck of Jasta 11, at 10.05 E of Hollebeke
- by Ltn. E. Stapenhorst of Jasta 11, at 10.30 near Wyschaete

There is only a small chance that a German pilot misidentfied this type of aircraft during the summer of 1917.

So, probably the aircraft was shot down by a 2-seater or by Flak. Or is it possible, that no fighter German pilot made a claim of shooting down a Triplane because he didn´t notice that he´d damaged it heavily enough during a dogfight (and the machine crashed afterwards on the way home due to damages or the wounds of the pilot)?

Rendsburg · 4 March 2005, 07:38 AM

Salut Gregoire!
est-ce-que tu peux m'envoyer l'adresse du site Français?
Merci d'avance,
Otto

MikeW · 4 March 2005, 10:30 AM

There were two Sopwith Triplanes lost on the 3rd September, Le Garrec of the Escadrille Terrestre de Chasse du CAM de Dunkerque in N5388 and FSL GBG Scott of No.1 Squadron RNAS.

Le Garrec came down near Dixmude and Scott at Wytschaete.

As already posted, there were three claims for Triplanes on the 3rd:

Ltn K Hammes J32 SE of Essen
Ltn A v Schönebeck J11 East of Hollebeke
Ltn E Stapenhörst J11 at Wytschaete

Hammes at Essen is obviously ridiculous!

Schonebeck and Stapenhorst, however, seem much more likely. Hollebeke and Wytschaete are both close to Dixmude. If we assume that Scott really did come down at Wytschaete he fits Stapenhorst's claim perfectly. That leaves Schonebeck claiming Henri Le Garrec.

Jasta 11 strikes again.

So what about Hammes? Awarded a claim with no evidence to back it up and no matching loss on the Allied side

But no. how stupid of me, we all know that never happened!

One other thing, Volker said "There is only a small chance that a German pilot misidentfied this type of aircraft during the summer of 1917."

Hey, if it was good enough for Lothar von R, surely it was good enough for anyone?

Mike

Soderbaum · 4 March 2005, 11:40 AM

Hi

I agree completely with Mike W that saying that is was a small chance for mis-identifying is nonsense.

In september 1917 it was very common that German a/c was involved with combats with a mixed type of enemy aircraft...so the chance for correct identifying was in fact small (as it was merely the entire War by a hugh amount of reasons)

The only Sopwith triplane which are listed in the monthly German list of captured a/c is N 5388 (Le Garrec), AND by the Jasta 11 claims only von Schönebecks victim is listed to have fallen within German hold lines, WHILE Stapenhörst claim is recorded to have fall within allied lines...

So likely von Schönebeck was responsible to have brought down Le Garrec. But there is a problem with Scott, as he is reported MIA (however it is not reported in allied sources that I have, that he actually fell in German hold lines..)

Mike wrote: So what about Hammes? Awarded a claim with no evidence to back it up and no matching loss on the Allied side But no. how stupid of me, we all know that never happened!

In this case I agree with Mike W regarding that he wrote "How stupid of me."
According to German sources also Hammes victory (whatever type it was) came down within German hold lines, but for example the weekly Kofl 4 states that the date for his victory was 2 Sep 17...

Gunnar

MikeW · 4 March 2005, 01:46 PM

Hey Gunnar,

perhaps not so stupid after all

If the goalposts have changed and Hammes victory was in fact on the 2nd September and not the 3rd September 1917, his claim is even more tenuous.

There were no triplanes lost on the 2nd September, the British only lost one machine on the 2nd, a SPAD 7 of 195 Squadron somewhere near Roubaix.

I can't comment upon any possible French losses in the vicinity of Essen.

Mike

Soderbaum · 5 March 2005, 02:38 AM

Hi again

When looking further on some maps, we can with rather certainty rule out von Schönebeck as responsible for have brought down Le Garrec...

However, Hammes claim (within German hold lines between Eessen and Zarren fits the location for Le Garrec)....the problem here is that German sources gives different dates for the claim....is it 100 % sure that Le Garrec was brought down on 3 Sep 17...??...or is it the day he was reported MIA..??
As Hammes was a member of an Bavarian unit, perhaps it exists more material about the incident in the Archive in München..?

So my conclusion is that von Schönebeck brought down Scott, Hammes brought down Le Garrec while the victory for Stapenhörst which fell within allied lines still can not be verified with known allied losses...

Gunnar

Rick · 5 March 2005, 05:22 AM

According to the Jasta 35b KTB (see C&C 24,1 page 67), Hammes' claim was actually on the 3rd. I attribute Le Garrec to him.

And, what about the loss of F/S/Lt. W.J. Beattie of Naval 1, who was KIA on 3Sep17?? I believe he was Stapenhörst's victim. FWIW. R.

MikeW · 5 March 2005, 05:36 AM

Gunnar,

Henri Le Garrec was definitely lost on the 3rd. Almost certainly. Probably

All of my material indicates the 3rd and I have no reason to think otherwise.

So how many Essens are there in Belgium? The only one I can find is nowhere near Dixmude, being up near the Netherlands border. And where was Jasta 32 stationed in September? 32B was with the 5th Army but I can't trace 32.

You said "we can with rather certainty rule out von Schönebeck"

I don't understand why as Hollebeke is in the right vicinity for Dixmude. I have a shot of what's left of le Garrec's machine surrounded by Germans so he definitely fell on the German side.

Mike

Soderbaum · 5 March 2005, 05:59 AM

Hi Mike

Does it exist original French sources which clarify that Le Garrec started his last patrol in the morning of 3 Sep 17...?
Probably it does, but as Rick says the KTB (War Diary) of Jasta 35b states the date to be 3 Sep 17....so we actually dont have a problem...or...??

von Schönebecks Triplane came down at Zandvoorde which is another front area then the area around Dixmuiden. It is actually a gigantic distant apart on my maps...!
It shall also be noted that the German flyers followed the Army Groups areas strictly when not other orders were given...

Also Stapenhörst claim was in Wytschatebogen (far south of Ypres) as von Schönebecks...

You are correct that Jasta 32b served in the Verdun area around this time..

Do you happened to knew what Sopwith Triplane Beattie was flying this day...?
I dont have him killed in action as Rick have, but I have another reference that he was shot down and probably was ok this day...
What happened to Beatties a/c...?

Gunnar