Realistic flight paths for CG models in film

[SL DIII]

Hi All,

I was thinking about how computer generated aircraft in films never seem to look realistic in flight. On the other hand, movie makers have been able to duplicate the motion of humans walking and running fairly realistically, which to me would seem to be a far greater challenge.

We've all seen how special effects people in some instances dress actors with suits that have sensors to monitor their motion to duplicate their motion digitally. Couldn't this technology be applied to the flight of an aircraft as well? I would think all you would need are sensors in the nose, tail and on the wingtips because most airplanes probably won't (or at least probably shouldn't!) flex very much in normal operation. Is there a way to plot coordinates of the four sensors as they relate to each other using GPS units to generate a realistic flight path? I don't really know if the accuracy of GPS would make this idea feasible, but I’d imagine that some type of technology exists to accomplish this.

Attaching this equipment (or something like it) to an aircraft that might be fairly easy to come by, and has similar flight performance characteristics to the rare type you are trying to duplicate (use an Agcat for a Sopwith Snipe for example), should give realistic results when you plug in the computer generated aircraft by hooking it up to the appropriate corresponding sensor reference points.

Another approach might be to take existing aerial footage of real aircraft (or shoot new footage of your Agcat or Stearman) and plot on the screen how the aircraft moves through the air (and in relation to other aircraft or objects around it) by establishing reference points on the airplane's extremities and recording the results for each frame. Again, establish corresponding reference points on your CG aircraft and plug it into the scene.

I was watching the new Hell's Angels DVD this weekend, and to date, there seems to be no substitute for the "real deal" when it comes to flying scenes. Those of you who have seen it will agree that some of that footage is simply fantastic. I particularly liked the camera angle from behind the SE5a pilot's head while on the tail of the D.VII, as the D.VII attacked the bomber. The DVIIs attacking the bomber as the gunner fired at them was also memorable, as was the diving D.VII, and the spinning bomber. Seeing how the aircraft interacted with each other in reality on film beats any "Hollywood" special effects that I've ever seen relating to aircraft flight.

With computer graphics artists like the talented Mark Miller (who can create absolutely real looking aircraft), and all that we know about how particular airplanes fly, there should be no reason that mankind can't combine these elements to create a realistic CG flight footage.

I'll be the first to admit that I don't know anything about the technical end of these ideas...they are just concepts that perhaps somebody who is in a position to utilize them can further develop.

If anyone experiments with this, good luck and let us know the results. Maybe it has all been tried already?

SL DIII

[Mark_Miller]

SL DIII
You must have been reading my mind
and I agree with everything you said in your post

I have VERY little experience with animation, but I have given the problem some thought, and this utisiation of motion capture technogy combined with GPS also occured to me.
Does sound feasible, doesn't it?
well... I honestly have no idea

But, I just can't help but think that there must be some way of getting better CG animation of aircraft in flight than what I've seen so far.

The part that looks like it would be the most difficult is damage.
Let's face it, if your going to show a dogfight, sooner or later some serious harm will have to be inflicted on somebody.
I think i have a pretty good line on modeling up an intact aircraft.
and the flight dynamics seem pretty straightforward
but when it starts to come apart .....
I wouldn't even know where to start.

well, we will see
Mark

[SL DIII]

Hi Mark,
Glad you agree...by the way I think your work is absolutely fantastic! I is probably the neatest thing to happen to the WWI aviation scene in a long time.

For crash scenes you could still fall back on scale R/C models. I've crashed a bunch of them in my day and they break just like the real ones!

SL DIII

[Mark_Miller]

Originally Posted by SL DIII

Hi Mark,
Glad you agree...by the way I think your work is absolutely fantastic! I is probably the neatest thing to happen to the WWI aviation scene in a long time.

For crash scenes you could still fall back on scale R/C models. I've crashed a bunch of them in my day and they break just like the real ones!

SL DIII

Thanks for that
I get a lot of satisfaction out of it

and your probably right about the crashes
On some things, you'll just need to rely on good old fashioned "reality"
for now

Mark

[SL DIII]

Whoops...didn't mean to say,
"I is probably the neatest thing to happen to the WWI aviation scene in a long time."

That makes me sound like I'm a little full of myself while using poor grammar! I meant to say "It" (ie your work). I guess you figured that out though.

SL DIII

[Lufbery]

I also agree that there's no substitute for the real thing. The dogfight in Tora Tora Tora looks so much better to me than the one in Pearl Harbor, for instance.

However, large scale flying models can do a good job, and some CGI planes look really good. I think the F-18s in Independence Day looked pretty darned good.

Regards,

[Mark_Miller]

and let's not forget "the battle of Britain"
Still has some of the best live action aerial footage I've ever seen.

I heard from somebody that when they did "Star Wars" they based a lot of the "dogfight" scenes on BoB.
dosn't realy make sense when you think about it.
The absence of air and gravity would alter things a bit
But it worked.

well... not sure of the truth of this
just something I heard
Mark

[Boom]

Something to keep in mind when talking about movies and flying is that directors still rule. If they don't think it looks 'real' enuff, it ain't. Period. Reshoot it (or put it back into the computer these days).

Some of the CG scenes also have the viewer still (not moving) in space, god's eye-view. Artsy-crafts, but unrealistic, and obviously impossible in the old days, eg Hells Angels.

The idea of GPS a good one, but the accuarcy isn't there yet. The training ranges used by the military use several radars to triangulate position and telemetry to send things like attitude, speed, G, weapons of each airplane. The results go into a computer and come out with accurate views, but again, the viewer is not moving..

As a pilot, I thought 'Dark Blue World' had some good CG flying. 'Pearl Horrible' and "Captain Whatshisname' were to be laughed at.

cheers, Boom

[FinnN]

The battle scenes in Star Wars are 'from' (being a bit unkind to Mr Lucas saying that) 12 O'Clock High (or possibly one of the other 'bomber' films). On the DVD set that came out recently there's a documentary with scenes from the two films cut together, seen side-by-side you have to wonder how they got away with it copyright-wise!

As already mentioned, I think the main reason why a lot of CGI flight (and other) scenes fail to look realistic is the perspective they're shot from. Hovering in mid-air, perched directly in front of the windscreen - and all in perfect focus! It's impossible to get real footage that looks like that and consequently the CGI looks false. There are other things too though, for example I'm sure a lot of the sequences are produced by animators not used to doing aircraft, who tend to use the same techniques that they'd use in character animation - exaggerated and signposted movement for one thing. Also the movement is put together from the perspective of someone outside the planes, by which I mean with real planes and real pilots they are always going to be doing things relative to what they can see out of their cockpits (or work out mentally) - which gets back to the 'godlike' viewpoint thing again. The sequences in DBW avoid those things - realistic viewpoints, footage not unrealistically clear and generally from the pilots' perspectives which all adds up to footage that blends in seemlessly.

There is one other place that I've seen realistically moving aircraft on screen away from old films and newsreel footage - and that's in multiplayer flight sims such as IL2 and the Microsoft series. I don't mean those games when played by kids intent on flaming their 100th enemy this evening, but rather by a group of people who choose to play in some sort of vaguely historical fashion. Played in that way you see the planes behave in a fairly realistic manner, as the players have similar restrictions in awareness as a real pilot. Some of those games can record the tracks of things moving around and could probably be used as a basis for rendering properly. Treat the players as actors (or train actors/animators up as players) and you probably even have more scope than with the real thing.

Who knows in a few years maybe game graphics will be good enough to use straight? After all this is what FS2004 looks like now (with a few add-ons of course):








Have fun
Finn

[SL DIII]

I agree about the use of unrealistic perspectives taking away from the realism of the finished product. Using CG airplanes while maintaining a realistic perspective (you are observing a dogfight from another airplane, either as a participant, or an observer from a distance) seems like it would be a winning combination. Maybe the occasional use of an unrealistic perspective might enhance things if done properly and in a very limited fashion.

Haven’t seen DBW and didn’t know about Lucas’ use of 12 O’clock high…that’s very clever!

I haven’t seen The Aviator yet either, but the ad’s for it include some of those unrealistic perspectives (the Hughes racer flies directly at the viewer, about to take your head off!) Did I see a formation flight of WWI types down Hollywood Blvd. at night for the premiere scene of Hell’s Angels? I’d be a little surprised if that really happened. I still want to see it though, and I hope it is as good as the critics seem to be saying it is.

SL DIII

Finn, those Spit images are beautiful…too bad they aren’t WWI.

The Young Indiana Jones “Attack of the Hawkmen” used R/C models very convincingly, editing in sounds of rotary engines and slightly slowing down the footage to make the aircraft appear more realistic in flight.