Hermann Goering's Fokker DVII 5125/18

Hello everybody.

Guys, I've come to a full stop. I've managed to document most of Hermann's other airplanes with short descriptions to go with the models I've built, representing all the aircraft he flew. Most of the publications I've got unfortunately only give small amounts of information on this plane, i.e. he scored no victories in it, etc. I know that while he was in posession of the plane, he was mostly in an administrative role. I would like as much information as people can give me regarding how much the plane was used. Was it painted white at the factory? etc.

Thanks guys, Best Wishes, Ken.

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Kenderoz;
Fok.D.VIIF 5125/18, w.n. 3226, BMWIIIa engine serial no. 1375, had its Acceptance Test flight on 11 September 1918, by Weidner. The Acceptance Test Flight date is not necessarily the shipping date. It depends on when it was disassembled, loaded and block on flat bed freight cars.
There is no indication in the Fokker lists that this machine was special or different than the others tested on the same date. Because of that, I dont believe it was painted at the Fokker Flugzeugwerke. An Allied intelligence report stated they had seen an all white Fok.D.VII with red crosses! I'll find the report and Include it later.
Blue skies,
Dan-San
P.S. I had wrongly used 11 October 1918, after reviewing the data sheet ,I found it was 11 September 1918. I have corrected above.

[Langdon]

Kenderoz,

I believe that the aircraft in question was most likely painted white in the factory. If not there certainly was a considerable amount of effort made to replace the stencilling that can be seen on it, particularly the weight table on the cockpit side. I have never noticed an aircraft with a personalised colour scheme that has these stencils intact if that area of the aircraft has been painted over.

Regarding a special mention in the acceptance sheets for the colour scheme, it is unlikely that this would occur as the information provided is very basic and is limited to that given in the first two lines of Dan-San's response. It never mentions National marking changes or a change in camouflage style nor any other change in the aircraft from others that have preceded it except for the engine type.

Langdon

[FinnN]

Wouldn't white with red crosses on a warplane be against the conventions of war?

Have fun
Finn

[Dan_San_Abbott]

FinnN:
Do you think that the red crosses of a Fok.D.VII might be confused for an ambulance plane?
With one coat of white paint would not cover the lettering. I don't believed stencils were used, the markings were done by a sign painter. All the lettering was complete, The crosses were hand painted too.
Langdon, I don't believe that Fokker would not authorize the added cost of the of the white paint and its application unless someone would pay for it, Then there is the acceptance inspection and the plane does not conform to the specified finish. You guys are not thinking this through. I'll find the intelligence report, then you can take it from there. I am just the messenger.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[Langdon]

Dan-San,

The weight tables and numbers are almost certainly stencilled, in some numbers you can see the gaps in the numerals that shows they were using a stencil font, early E.Fs in particular use this.

I have never seen a Fokker acceptance notation that describes a change in camouflage or any other modification from previous aircraft so I do not think the lack of this description in this case proves anything. You may well be correct that Fok.D.VIIF 5125/18 left the factory painted as a standard aircraft but it seems to me that a lot of effort has gone into its perfect white paint-job and stencilling/sign-writing, you have studied many more aircraft than I have Dan-San, can you think of any others that have gone to this effort of repainting military numbers and weight tables?

Fokker was obviously careful with money in the production of his aircraft but he also was a very shrewed businessman, apparently he often entertained pilots in his Hotel Bristol, no doubt at his own expense, and he went to great lengths to listen to what they wanted in an aircraft. I do not think he would be particularly concerned by the extra cost of the white paint job if he could influence the recommendations of a man as influential as Goering was at this stage of the war.

As for delivering an aircraft that did not meet its camouflage specifications, well Fokker did this with a number of Dr.Is that he delivered with the wrong National markings, he also ignored many structural modification directives for parts such as the rudder bar on the Dr.I and E.V.

Langdon

[FinnN]

Originally posted by Dan_San_Abbott@Sep 13 2004, 05:07 AM
[b] FinnN:
Do you think that the red crosses of a Fok.D.VII might be confused for an ambulance plane?

Well a red cross on a white ground is (and were at the time) the official Red Cross marking so I find it hugely unlikely that a fighter pilot would either choose those for their own personal plane, or that they would be allowed to by their superiors. Unless the report you mention is of a crashed or captured plane then I suspect it's merely a case of a trick of the light confusing whoever saw it.

Contemporary recognition guides certainly have similar mistakes as this in them (although the most extreme example of a flawed recognition guide I've seen is a British one from 1941 of Japanese aircraft which is missing most of the important planes of time and full of German and Italian aircraft).

Have fun
Finn

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Langdon et al:
After spending several days reading the RAF Summary of Air Intelligence, The Independent Force, Weekly Summary of Aeronautical Information and the AEF Summary of Air Intelligence, I finally remembered where the information was. It was in Cross and Cockade Volume 3 No.3 /Autumn 1967, page 211, an article By H.Hugh Wynne from Data gathered by Dr. Phillip Noffsinger in the Gorrell Report in the National Achive. Dr.Noffsinger was looking for description of colorful German aircraft from all the pilots Combat Reports of American pilots who served in American, British and French squadrons. Hugh Wynne has reduced the data to the information just concerning the specific aircraft and its colors, where, the date and the Squadron from which the report originated. From this we have,
131. Fokker- the leader was all-white with what looked like red crosses. Milly-devant-Dun, 26 Sep. 18 147 US
132. Fokkers- leader all-white with red crosses. Milly-devant-Dun 26 Sep.18 147 US.
Milly-devant-Dun is in the German Armee Abteilung "C"sector.
Jage Nr.1 "Richthofen" is based at Metz-Frescaty Airfield as of 25 September 1918. Jage Nr.1 "Richthofen" pursuit region as far (west) as Verdun. Twenty combat flights on the 26th. Oblt Udet scored his 61st and 62 victories over D.H.9 machines.
Milly-devant-Dun is 30 klm nnw of Verdun and Verdun is 53 klm west of Metz-Frescaty airfield.
Oblt. Hermann Göring returned from leave and commanded Jage Nr.1 "Richthofen" from 4 september to 22 October 1918.
The White Fokker may have been flown by Oblt Udet, Jafu Jasta 4 on this date, the White Fokker led the formation. All four victories on this date were by Jasta 4 pilots.
Time, place date and opportunity.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[Dan_San_Abbott]

FinnN:
You are quite correct, the Geneva Convention of 1864 regulated the marking of ambulances and hospitals with a red cross on a on a white field. While there were a few flying ambulances during WW1, it was not an established practice on aircraft, because only a few aircraft would have made good ambulances. It was after WW1 that adequate aircraft became available and suited to be used as ambulances. By WW2 there were many aircraft used as ambulances, i.e. the C-47, however, I don't remember them painted white with red crosses. I think they were just plain C-47 with litters set-up for transport of wounded.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[FinnN]

I've done a bit of poking about this on the Internet and it seems that air ambulances with red cross markings were first officially recognised in 1929 (there's a good discussion of this here: http://www.dustoff.org/geneva-convention.htm). Having said that I'm pretty sure I've seen profiles of at least both Caproni and Breguet Br14 (but can't put my hands on them now) ambulance aircraft with red crosses on a white background (not the entire aircraft). I've seen a photo of a German air ambulance as well but don't remember if it had any special markings or not. I still think that the the markings - if it were red balkenkreuz's on a white background - would have been so widely recognised as the Red Cross symbol that it simply would never have been used. On the other hand a white aircraft with black crosses seen at dawn or dusk could easily seem to have red crosses, and once identified as such once would be even more likely to be 'spotted' again. I'm not saying that it's completely impossible those markings were used, just that only two mentions (one of which only a 'seemed to have') from the same unit within a period of a week and nothing afterwards or from other units or the German side would, to me, be very weak evidence given the significance of the red cross.

Skipping forward a bit, in the WW2 period any aircraft could be used as an air ambulance (if suitable) and only those which were specifically used as ambulances were marked as such. As most planes were also used for other purposes as well those went without markings. One example I can think of off the top of my head would be the German use of the He59 in the channel. These were in the pre-war light grey colour and had large distinctive red crosses on them. The Germans were also using these planes for recce purposes and were thereafter attacked by the RAF (as well as the rescue bouys that were equipped with radio equipment). Once this happened the Germans, after a big protest, repainted the aircraft in more up-to-date dark greens. Regardless of whether or not the Germans were indeed using Red Cross marked aircraft for war purposes it does show what a mess can happen when there's even a suspicion of misuse.

Have fun
Finn