Collishaw/Allmenroeder

[adrian roberts]

The authors of this site are excellent at cross-referencing the various entries, e.g. so and so was shot down by someone else listed on the site. But I wonder if an obvious one is missing. In Raymond Collishaw's autobiography "Air Command" he says that he shot down Karl Allmenroeder. He describes the incident by saying he dived on an enemy formation, and whereas he normally held his fire until close range, on this occassion he tried a short burst at extreme range, and was surprised to see the formation leader, a green and white Albatross, go down. He later ascertained it was Allmenroeder. But the biographies of these men on this site do not mention each other.
Collishaw does not have the reputation of exaggerating his accounts. Do any of you know if he was mistaken here?
Adrian

[Rick]

Probably because there is no link to make, other than in Collishaw's mind. See "Sopwith Triplane Aces" by Norman Franks. R.

[R Pope]

Quoting the "Record of Combats" of the Air Historical Branch of the Air Ministry; Collishaw;"There was nothing at all spectacular about my adventure with Allmenroder. I was flying with two other Triplanes and I saw three Albatros scouts below and to a flank and on looking around I saw a second three Albatros well above and to a flank in the opposite direction. It was rather an awkward position for the Triplanes, as we could easily become the meat in the sandwich. However, the upper foremation did nothing untoward and I thought that they had not seen the Triplanes. I therefore decided to make a rapid attack on the albatros below and then leave the scene quickly. I made the signal for the assault to my pilots. We went down in a steep dive and I opened fire on the lead Albatros,while my two pilots opened on the adjoining targets. I had fired from long range,as I intended to do a "tip and run" raid,and had expended perhaps 100 rounds, when suddenly I felt my aircraft hit by bullets. At the same instant I saw my target go out of control. I immediately took violent avoiding action and so did my pilots and we rejoined at the lines. At the time, I paid no attention to this brief, what I thought of as indecisive, action. Experienced pilots,when suddenly attacked, always took such violent avoiding action,which momentarily placed their aircraft out of control. As I had fired at long range, I simply thought the German pilot was acting normally and that there was nothing more to the affair. It was not until Gerald Nash returned from POW and told me about Allmenroder's death that I knew what had happened. "The pilots in Allmenroder's formation could scarcely believe that he had been shot down because the firing had been done from such long range.A German officer observer on the ground watched Allmenroder's fall. His aircraft went momentarily out of control and then proceeded to glide, what appeared to be normally, to the eastward; but after a brief interval, the Albatros went into an uncontrolled dive and crashed."

[Rick]

Good story. Allmenröder fell at 9.45 hours. Collishaw's claim was at 17.20 hours. At least according to NLR Franks. (Now is it time to add my usual rant about British claims vs. German losses ) R.

[Gregvan]

Dear Adrian,

The Collishaw-shooting-down-Allmenroeder story is an old one that has been retold many times, by such authors as Arch Whitehouse. Unfortunately it's entirely mistaken. It makes a great story, especially as Allmenroeder had shot down Nash of Collishaw's 'B' Flight. Collishaw did fire at an Albatros at extreme range on 27 June, but did not even put in a claim for it. However, others made the Collishaw-Allmenroeder connection and apparently Collishaw himself came to accept it and included it in his book.

Allmenroder was killed at 09.45 at Zillebeke, almost certainly by anti-aircraft fire. An eyewitness account by a German infantryman published in 1937 (see Neal O'Connor's "Aviation Awards of Imperial Germany, Vol. VI page 336) indicates that Allmenroeder's red Albatros was shot down by machine gun and AA fire. Collishaw did not fly at all that day until 17.30 (in the evening), by which time Allmenroeder had been dead for hours.

You can find a very balanced and thorough account of this, and the entire Black Flight story, in Mike Westrop's marvelous new book "A History of No. 10 Squadron RNAS" from Schiffer.

Greg VanWyngarden

[Rick]

Greg's a trifle more tactful than I am. Still, that's the tale. R.

[R Pope]

Collishaw never did make an official claim of downing Allmenroder. Nash told him,long after the fact, that his captors gave him the impression that he'd been downed by Nash's squadron mates.

[MikeW]

As Greg and Rick said, Collishaw and Allmenroeder were not airborne at the same time - by many hours.

There have, however, been some wonderful descriptions of their combat, one of which went into a very detailed flowery account of a 20 minute twisting and turning encounter from which Collishaw eventually emerged victorious. Other stories repeat the long range burst and Allmenroeder's machine "staggering" in the air. All fiction.

After the war, it didn't take Ray Collishaw long to convince himself that this was indeed a victory. At the time he didn't put in a claim because it didn't happen!

The story about Nash telling Collishaw of Allmenroeder after the war - I suppose we'll never know. So much crap was made up about these guys!

Incidentally, it was a great regret that I wasn't able to put a photograph of Nash in the book, In 20 years of searching I'd never seen one published, and I know that Nash's son was/still is a high powered lawyer who threatened off any researchers trying to write about Nash or publish photographs of him. Well, I obtained a photograph of Nash a month or so back, typical isn't it?

Hey Greg,

thanks for the kind words, we need a "blushing" smilie!


Mike

[adrian roberts]

Thanks, chaps (or should I say guys for the Americans/Canadians)
This should teach me not to think of first-hand or contemporary accounts as definitive. I've researched one or two other subjects and found the same thing.
I had the impression that Collishaw was a steadier and less flamboyant character than certain other aces one could mention, but I suppose everyone has an ego that is capable of being flattered. I suppose if he heard that Allmenroder died on the day of that combat, and if he did meet Nash after the war and discuss it, it would have been tempting to jump to conclusions.
Adrian

[R Pope]

Did a German plane fall to Collie's (or anyone else's) guns that day, at the time of the storied "long shot"? And whose account have we that Allmenroder fell hours earlier?