Recording victories?

Hello or should I say Gutentag


This is my first day on this great forum, and it looks like I've finally found a forum for WWI Aviation enthusiasts like myself.


What I wanted to ask this forum is if anyone of you know the procedure for recording victories. It seems to me that the French were a lot more willing to credit a pilot with a victory than the Germans were.

I have heard something about the Germans not registrering kills made behind enemy lines.

What was the procedure for getting credits for kills and is the story about Germans not recording victories made behind enemy lines true or false?



VossFan

[Soderbaum]

Hi VossFan

The majority of German aerial victories were scored over enemy lines...it was a few months that more victories were scored over own lines especially in the beginning of the War...

The basic rule for German victories was that the aircraft/balloon was a complete loss for the enemy which not meant that German flyer/flyers had to destroy the enemy a/c (it could well be destroyed by artillery after beeing forced to land or forced down in own territory...etc..etc..)

and welcome to this Forum...


Gunnar

[Soderbaum]

Hi Duckman

My notes are based on material from Kogenluft monthly lists of losses and victories. Part of this material has been presented in earlier discussion as You mentioned....!
Regarding the British flyers involvement, You can see in the thread "The French connection" that even late in the War like Aug 1918 when the British had major offensive battles, the German lost more aircraft on the French front areas...so I am also rather convinced that the Germans throughout the War lost more aircraft against the French Air Service then against the British..but with the material I have today, I cant definitely proofe that..

The British did NOT have an official victory system during the War, which makes their claims (also destroyed) more or less un-valid. I have some own theories why they did not "care" to have it, but it could be partly political reasons (in 1915).

It was the French which first developed a victory system for flyers as they already in the beginning of the War shot down ten times more aircraft in aerial battles then the German did. Their succeses also lead to the creation of Aces. The French victory system obviously changed from the origin and become slightly harder in 1916 and later. But their system basically "demanded" a destroyed enemy aircraft/balloon. I am however unsure if the French system in all cases demanded witnesses..

Most countries involved in the War "followed" the guidelines the French had developed but not all had the sharing system they had.

I would say that in general, that the French victories are valid in over 80 % (depending on German losses I am aware of) comparing to British claims of destroyed which are less then 20 %......so here we are playing in two different leagues....

Italy is an interesting country regarding victories because they had "double" system. One for the media/press during the War and one officially which not was published until after the War...however also Italian victories definitely are valid over 80 %...

The conventional wisdom wisdom that the British was fighting mostly over German lines is "flat wrong". I have German documents for many months in 1918 for the Somme front were they reported that the British constantly flew sperre-flights and seldom crossed the lines. However the situation during battles were quite different(like April 1917) and from mid Aug 1918 until end when there more or less constant offensives and the Germans had huge problem with fuel...

Lastly I would say that the British in a German view were more agressive then the French and crossed the lines more frequently then the French did. The British also had very unusual Air Force compared to all other countries with a extreme high percent of fighters..

What people have to understand is that more than 80 % of all combats actually took place over what can be called the "Front line area"...

h34r:
Gunnar

p.s. I havent counted which percent of British losses which fell in enemy lines from example TSTB, but that source ought to give a rough indication...or..?

[Graeme]

Gunnar

From The Sky Their Battlefield, page 574:

"Setting aside airmen wounded in action, the yearly percentages of those killed or taken prisoner east of the lines compared with all casualties are

1914: 65%
1915: 80%
1916: 73%
1917: 78%
1918: 85%

The battlefield for British airmen lay decidedly to the east."

The tabulation on page 575 gives 4,848 casualties (excluding wounded) of which 3,913 were lost east of the lines; this being 80.7% of the aircrew killed, missing or taken prisoner on the Western Front 1914-18.

Graeme

Hi,

Here are two great reads on the subject:

http://www.theaerodrome.com/contrib/cd.html

http://www.theaerodrome.com/contrib/vs.html

We can thank Frank and Barrett for the excellent information.

regards

i can't combat any of you with stats, but i can suggest some things that i bear in mind. firstly the nature of air combat. i imagine few of us have ever experienced it, and i can only imagine the disorientation one gets. this makes it hard to always track the course of engagements, along with the curious phenomena reported by pilots of finding themselves in a deserted sky moments after large dogfights.
the way in which victories were confirmed changed during the course of the war, and what constituted a victory. i believe early in the war a victory could be forcing a aircraft to land or to turn back from it mission. this soon changed to the complete destruction of enemy A/c and balloons. Nevertheless i still belive that we should not be so quick to judge pilots of their official scores. one Frenchman, perhaps Fonck( but don't quote me on it) said that along with his unconfirmed kills his score would have reached far over 100. obviously some unconfirmed kills my not have been destroyed, many more would have been credited to other pilots. this is problem MvR suffered with in his early career. perhaps even more a/c were though damaged, but later crashed and were destroyed on landings. ( a task for the stats minded historian)
another change to be considered is probably the increasing numbers of a/c as the war progressed. by 1918, long had the days gone when men like Albert Ball (had he lived) had been able to go on their lone wolf patrols in reasonable safety. the numbers of a/c raises two problems. firstly if there are few involved, perhaps one vs one, then the claim is near impossible to prove far over enemy lines. the other problem is if one has a large dogfights involving scores of a/c, then one can not track the results of individual attacks or confirm single victories with any ease. this is a problem that continued into the second world war and especially in the Battle of Britain.
i believe that the remark that the british claiming system was lacking is justified. however, this is because of the offensive war that the RFC/RAF was involved in. the Germans found it easier, perhaps, to confirm their pilots claims as the majority of engagements happens over German held territory. the Germans rarely operated in offensive strategies both in the air and ground within the western front, certainly not successfully until the removal of the Russian threat.

nothing ground breaking, but valid i hope.

cheers
Phil, University of Kent