need help.....demoiselle

I have been advised that there are a great many frequenters of this forum very knowlegable in the early years of flight as well as WWI aircraft.
I am sorry to post this under WWI aircraft, but the "other" subject forum, does not seem to get the attention i am seeking. Please forgive the intrusion...
That said, does anyone have any good pictures of how the steel brace tubes of the fuselage attach to the bamboo longerons on the 1909 version 20 demoiselle? or does anyone live close to Musee de L'air et Espace and kind enough to send a digital picture?

Best regards,

Dave

[Rod_Filan]

Hello Dave,

I know how you feel. I have one-thousand and one questions about aeroplanes before 1914 but nowhere to dicuss them. But now that I have you on the line so-to-speak, I'm curious about La Demoiselle. I've seen images of No.19 and No.19bis but wasn't aware of the No.20. How many versions of La Demoiselle did Santos-Dumont develop? Odd thing to me is that No.19 looks to have come after No.19bis. The airframe appears much more airworthy - no skid between the wheels, wooden propeller, rotary motor vs belt driven Antoinette. Not to mention the No.19 with horizontal stabilizers on either side of the pilot. Have I got things backwards here viewing misidentified photos?

VBR
Rod

Rod, I believe the 19 with the added side vertical stabilizers was built after the belt drive version. I need to check my references. Santos was very much an experimenter and changed the configuration frequently! My 1909 and 1910 references show the no. 20 version. I think the production versions were no 21 or 22.
Either way this was quite an aircraft for its time. (In the old books they claim that dihedral is destabilizing the aeroplane!)
I don't have a lot on the Demoiselle, but I do have the haywood books on the bleriot and curtiss model d.
Last year an aviator from Sweden flew a Bleriot at Sun-n Fun. It was an inspiration! (not just the quick hop, he flew it around with the gnome churning away!)

Dave

[jempie]

hello!

In a hurry!
Could you sent me your e-mail address please?
to joel.lauwers@pandora.be
I have some S-D Demoiselle types on photo, don't know if of help, but's to you to judge!
What I know is for more Clément-Bayard factories constructed a Demoiselle which was or 20or 21 or 22 model under license!
I don't quite well know to identify which is each of this types!

I add here one who was present at Reims 1909 (or 1910 ?)
The Demoiselle of Santos Dumont!

Was published into a french bookwork les Aéroplanes pour Tous 1910!
Editions of this book were recently (perhaps even now?) for sale on Ebay...
But you have 1909,1910 and 1911 editionwith same title!
This photo was extracted from the 1910 edition!

VBR

Jempie

(I have a quite good stuffed collection on pre-WWI postcards and pictures from French pionniers planes, but not all of them!)

[jempie]

Oh by the way!

You had Demoiselles with air-cooled (Darracq two cilinder motor) and water-cooled versions! The picture shows the lesser frequent (?) water cooled version...the cooling tubes are in the wing !
Motorisation on same model could be different!
I think the Clément bayard was the 20 type , But I am not sure!
I have a catalogue from July 1910 from the Clément-Bayard firm.
perhaps someone could post once teh correct S-D 20 type?
So that we know what we are looking for?

Jean-Pierre Lauwers / Jempie

[timjnf]

I too am very interested in pre WWI aircraft. I probably like them even better than WWI aircraft.
Is there enough interest amongst the forumites that would make it worth having a separate section for these earlier aircraft?

[jempie]

Think it would be sufficient by the start to have a section on all questions on pre-WWI aviation, or aeronautical history.
Means all questions could be posted there on planes, technical questions as on motors, and people (pilots) ?

In this case such questions wouldn't get mixted anymore amongst WWI ones?

On pilots there is a website www.earlyaviators.com which is already partly solving the "people" section.

But there isn't a real website "exclusively" on pre-WWI planes!
(Period 1902-1914) With everyones help this could be realised by means of eventually submitted photo's but who will set it up?
A private guy's website last as long he lives , but what after?
In more such ones are dealing about some aspects, or types only...very limited on info and pictures, what I liked more to see, is a website with all types of planes constructed worldwide at the time as complete as possible!

Should have to go out from an organisation...a museum's website f.e. which remains for ever!

I add here once a photo : Max Niedergefasz from Glochau- Germany
At the touristic website from Glochau there is a section of their history...
But when I mailed I got as responce they don't know the man and had never heard from a resident there constructing a plane!
The photo seems to be shot into a gyms hall into a school!
He doesn't figure on the listing of German Licensed Pilots until 1914!
But this photo doesn't lie about his excistence!
Is one of those unique photos on this particular man which might go lost for
ever into aviation history!
VBR

Jempie

jempie, thanks for the e-mails! A lot of information! Would you mind if I use the pics on my web page? www.sport-pilot.us

Thanks,
Dave

[cameldriver]

You should try to get hold of Joe Gertler, one of the forumites. I believe that he used to own a demoiselle when he was out here on LI.

[jempie]

Hello!

Just traced a picture from probably another Clément-Bayard catalogue (or perhaps from a publicity flyer?) into one of my bookworks.

I's proved here the Demoiselle conctructed under license by Clément-Bayard was indeed the n°20 model!

What the Demoiselle from Joe Gertl goes on, could it be Joe's Junior Exhibition at Hermeskeil Aviation Museum/Germany ? The "Demoiselle" in Exhibition there ?

What goes on the n° 19 Belt type the photo on this one was published into my contemporary magazines (+/- November 1908!) after the one with those "Side stabilisators" as on which n° 19 was painted, this was on 19th November 1907! Than the following picture published I found on the Demoiselle was already alike the n°20 framework structure (April 1909!)but still with a third landinggear wheel fitted than halfway between cockpit and tail! On the n°20 this "third wheel" is absent!


VBR

Jempie