Eddie's Real Score

Eddie Rickenbacker and his 26 victories have always been considered to be at the top of the US ace list for WW1. However, it has been mentioned on this site on more than one occasion that his actual score was closer to ten than 26.
I know he shared 3 of his victories, and I thought that the USAS followed the stricter French scoring standard as opposed to the RAF system.
Can anyone clear this up? Barrett, Frank, etc. Help!

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Terry McCormick;

The United States goverment has credited Capt. E.V. Rickenbacker with 26 confirmed victories. That is sufficient facts for all of us. You can surmize until hell freezes over, and that will not change the facts. Ask Al Lowe! Bishop has 72 confirmed victories, Mannock has 73 confirmed victories, those are the facts, quit beating a dead horse.

Blue skies,
Dan-San

[Vin]

Terry,

It was 10 DSC's, not victories.


Vin

[Frank_Olynyk]

Vin and Terry,
It was 1 DSC, with 7 Bronze Oak-leaf clusters, the last of which was upgraded to the MoH. *The book Decorations United States Army 1862-1926, published in 1927, lists his DSCs as announced in War Department G.O.'s No. 121 (1918 ), and No. 32 (1919). *As follows:
DSC: for action on April 29, 1918, 1 victory
1st OLC: for action on May 17, 1918, 1 victory
2nd OLC: for action on May 22, 1918, 1 victory
3rd OLC: for action on May 28, 1918, 1 victory
4th OLC: for action on May 30, 1918, 1 victory
5th OLC: for action on Sept 14, 1918, 1 victory
6th OLC: for action on Sept 15, 1918, 1 victory
7th OLC: for action on Sept 25, 1918, 2 victories
This latter was upgraded to the MOH in 1930. *As far as I am aware, upgrading an existing award was allowed after 1921 (later 1923 or 25?), but a new award could not be proposed/requested after those dates.

In Rickenbacker's case the number of OLCs is very unusual; no one else approaches these numbers. *Luke received the DSC for eight balloons in four days; then a single OLC for action on Sept 18, destroying two balloons and 3 Fokkers in a single mission. *Jacques Swaab, with 10 victories, received a single DSC, for a combat on Sept 28 (1 victory) plus an additional combat on Oct 27 (1 victory). *Most of the aces received only a single DSC.

Frank.

Dan-San,
I agree with you - I don't go along with revisionist thinking about Captain Eddie, or anybody else. They were all heroes to me. Gee, I still credit Billy B. with 72!
Vin,
I didn't mix up DSC's and victories. Some time ago it was mentioned on this forum that Eddie's actual score was closer to 10 than 26. I just wanted more details on this statement.

Hi,

Even though there still exist some controversy over Rickenbacker's score, it is offically listed that he scored 26 victories. In Frank Olynyk's excellent book, "United States Credits for Destruction of Enemy Aircraft in Air-To-Air Combat World War One", He is actually listed with 24.333 destroyed with 2.333 probable. This actually adds up to 26.666 aircraft!

I like Frank's book, as it does a real good job of catorgorizing all claims by U.S. pilots, giving a better picture of actual results.

Regards,

JASTA75

Dear Terry,
As Al Lowe has his Bishop, I have my Rickenbacker...
EVR is someone that I have known and admired since I was a kid (along with Bölke, MvR, Luke, Coppens, Mannock, etc.), and I read his autobiography first when I was twelve (1971). So it's no pleasure for me when one of my heroes is doubted or criticized, even obliquely (not that I agree with everything that EVR did, believed, or stood for); on the other hand, I'm not about to charge you with being the anti-Christ...
FIGHTING THE FLYING CIRCUS was ghost-written, based upon EVR's diary entries; it is supposed to be fairly accurate. Why the ghost-writer said that EVR stayed on the ground on 11 November while EVR later claimed to have flown over the lines (and there is a squadron record of him having done so), I'll never know. BUT, again and again, one reads of victories being confirmed by ground observers (for example, a captive balloon was destroyed at dusk, and a glow was seen that jibed with EVR's co-ordinates of where he found this target).
But there is one kill that stands out... Rickenbacker's fifth. It was actually confirmed IN 1960! (So earlier accounts will probably say that Rick got 25 [confirmed]). Even more interesting is that this victory, had it only been confirmed in a more timely fashion, would have made Rick the first ace of the U.S. Air Force! As it turns out, Douglas Campbell scored his fifth at the same time, and it was confirmed before Rick's sixth, so he gets the honor of being first (please note: of the U.S. Air Force-- NOT the first American ace, who was probably Frederick Libby, serving in the RFC). The book that I referred to for the above "confirmation" was from James Sloan's WINGS OF HONOR (Schiffer,1994).
VBR,
Captain Lewis

[Vin]

Thankyou, Frank. The stated criteria requires “extraordinary heroism in military operations against an armed enemy of the United States.” Shooting down an enemy aircraft in itself cannot be grounds for the award, otherwise every pilot who shot down an enemy aircraft would have one. What is your theory as to the unusual number of Bronze Oak-leaf clusters awarded to Rickenbacker ?


Vin

[Billy_Bishop]

Ok, time for me to weigh into this. First, Mannock has 61. That's all the combat reports would add up to, that's what he has. Bishop has 72, that's what his CITAR's add up to, that's what he has.

EVR has 26 victories. THAT is what his combat reports add up to, that is his OFFICIAL score.

Now, USAF Historical Study #133 did an evaluation of the Victory credits awarded to US Military personel in WWI. It did not, contrary to the opinion of Raymond Toliver and Trevor Constable, change the OFFICIAL scores of those pilots. It simply gave a more accurate account of the ACTUAL number of enemy aircraft destroyed.

This study says that EVR destroyed 20.33 enemy aircraft and 4 balloons. A 5th balloon supposedly confirmed 30 years later did not survive their scrutiny. This study did NOT officially change any scores. It let the score board stand as it was. They simply tacked on the info to show what the ACTUAL destruction was.

In other words, the USAF says Eddie has 26 Victories. End of story.

VBR,

Al Lowe

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Al Lowe;
Al your opinion, my opinion, Terry's opinion has nothing to do with the established facts and they are what the various goverments have credited to these fighter pilots of WW1. Those are the facts, you can dig, surmise, suppose, wish or whatever else you want do and you cannot change the establish facts. I find it amazing that any of you will accept the writings of Norman Franks et al, without a question. I can find errors in every one of the books, I don't have the arrogance to give these guys heart burn for trying to get it right. Another thing in this regard, if it is not there , that does not mean it did not happen or on the other hand, may not happened at all.
The Grubb "Front" books have opened the door very wide and a lot of information has flowed out the door, but believe me not all of it. If I were to guess maybe 75%, but there is that elusive 25% that has not been found yet.
For the record, MvR has 80, Fonck,75, Mannock has 73, Bishop 72, and EVR has 26, and that is a fact!
Blue skies,
Dan-San