Martinsydes?

[RLWP]

Can anyone provide some background on Martinsyde aircraft?

So far I have got from Janes Fighting Aircraft of WW1 the following:

1914 Martinsyde produced a scout with an 80hp Gnome motor. This was "promptly ordered in large quantities by the War Office. It payed an important part in the war until 1915..."

Presumably this is the S1, and was seen off by the Fokker scourge? Janes photo caption has this as "one of the most successful small fighting machines of the 1915-16 campaign" although this might refer to the 100hp Monosoupape motor planes.

This was superseded by a scout with a 120hp Beardmore engine, eventually produced with a 160hp motor.

From info in the Forum I guess these are the G100 and G102 "Elephants"

Janes goes on to say "Since then the firm has produced some of the most valuable fighting machines". "The elephant....was built in hundreds."

Janes also mentions the single F3 with the RR Falcon engine, and the F4 with the 300hp Hispano-Suiza.

Other sites on the web suggest that only 7 F4s were delivered before the armistice, and that only 60 elephants were built.

As Janes account was written in 1919 are they right, or being somewhat jingoistic in an attempt to talk up the British aeroplane industry?

Richard

(Observer hoping to learn from Aces)

[Darryl]

Hello,

Get hold of the Martinsyde File by Ray Sanger (Air Britain), it will tell you all you need to know.

But be warned...it is not the same format as the other "files" and the index is completely U/S. Air Britain advise that they have "no plans" to correct it.

Email me if there is anything specific you would like.

In general, the aircraft were large for a scout but performed well against the competition of the day. AFC used the Elephant in Palastine to good effect. 27Sqn used them on the Western Front for quite a while.


regards

Darryl

>From info in the Forum I guess these are the
>G100 and G102 "Elephants"

The differance between the G100 and G102 seems to be mainly the engine. 1 Sqn AFC used them in Palestine through 1916 and 1917. McNamara was flying a G100 when he was wounded during his VC flight. The early G100's also appear to be in a mish mash of dopings pre-January 1917. A mix of CDL, PC10 and a middling warmish colour. Due to the BE2 being under-performing the squadron used the 'tinsydes for escort as well as bombing duties. They were generally liked in the squadron.

The squadron also made up some one off's, there was Mimi, which was a Martinsyde without wings, with floats and a Lewis Gun on the back. Williams was faced with Grain boats moving stores up and down the Dead Sea with impunity and he didnt have the air power to cover them, instead Mimi was used as a gun-boat. Apparently it threw up a huge foam wake from the propeller, the Martinsyde would overtake the grain boat and then fire back at it with it's Lewis Gun armament.

There was also Ross Smiths "Agnes" a Turkish railway truck which the squadron approriated and attached a 160 Hp Beardmore on the front of. It was used to do a grog run to the newly caputred aerodrome at Jenin. There was also Stan Nunans "Janet", a Ford flat bed with a pom-pom mounted on it that Nunan took to the front lines. It isnt clear from Sutherlands book if the put a Beardmore on the back of that too.

There was also apparently a Martinsyde that Lawrence Wackett modified into a two-seater complete with observer. I am wondering if this isnt the photo No.46 in the Martinsyde Datafile, though from the photo it appears that RFC (not AFC as they wore the slouches) ground-crew is around it. No serial is visible which is a bummer.

The Datafile also has on page 30 a smaller, very attractive single bay Martinsyde Scout in the style of the G100........ The Datafile says little is known of it. The photo however has a young Sydney Camm standing next to the aircraft.

There is some more info on 'tinsydes at;

http://www.australianflyingcorps.org/mkiii...fc_profiles.htm
http://www.australianflyingcorps.org/mkiii..._martinsyde.htm





cam
(Another Martinsyde fan)

[Ross_Moorhouse]

Do a search here http://www.awm.gov.au/database/photo.asp *for the Martinsyde and you will find some great photos. The first one that shows up in the search has this caption...

"Mesopotamia. 1915. A British armoured car recovering a British Martinsyde G.100 aircraft which had been captured and pressed into service by the Turks. Note Turkish insignia on aircraft."

From Volume 1 of CANADA'S AIR FORCE AT WAR AND PEACE by Larry Milberry (see http://www.canavbooks.com/Main)

Some men may have been condemned to relative obscurity because they were flying the wrong type of airplane. Flying "buffs" are familiar with the Sopwith Camel and SE.5; who remembers the Martinsyde Elephants and the men who flew them ? The type was not one of the more successful fighters of the day; it was too stable and heavy for dogfighting and spent more time in reconnaissance and bombing. The armament was also unusual - a Lewis gun mounted on the top wing and firing over the propeller, soon supplemented with a swivelling Lewis on a port side bracket to provide some protection to the rear. The Elephant's very obscurity demands that its pilots - Canadians included - be accorded some recognition.

Percy Clark Sherren was born at Crapaud, Prince Edward Island in July 1893. When the war broke out he secured a commission in the 26th Battalion, Canadian Expeditionary Force. He transferred to the RFC in May 1916; by August he was piloting Martinsyde aircraft with No.27 Squadron. On November 25 he was awarded a Military Cross - fast work indeed ! The citation was tantalizingly brief:

"He led a successful bomb raid, collecting and landing his formation with great skill. Later, he dropped bombs on an ammunition train from 500 feet, causing much damage."

Two of his combat reports are held in the National Archives of Canada. One dated September 23, 1916 (Martinsyde A.1567) makes exciting reading, even if the outcome was inconclusive. A German fighter attacked his flight commander; Sherren drove it away. A multi-coloured biplane approached and he attacked it as well, firing some 30 rounds before his guns jammed. His return to base was the most dangerous part of the sortie:

"On return journey from Cambrai pilot was attacked by several machines, but managed by diving at them to drive them off, being assisted by two other machines of the formation. Pilot was able to get his side gun going eventually and fired 3/4 drum at close range at one enemy machine which was attacking one of the formation. The tracers were seen going through the fuselage, but enemy was lost sight of. Pilot saw one machine going down under control with smoke coming from fuselage."

He was piloting A.1567 again on September 26, 1916 when he engaged a single seat Roland at 12,000 feet.

"Pilot noticed hostile machine on tail of another Martinsyde; pilot turned and fired 1/2 drum from top gun at enemy machine which was then only five yards above him and going in the same direction. Tracers were seen entering bottom of fuselage by pilot's seat. Enemy dived steeply in front of pilot, who followed and finished drum. Enemy was last seen sideslipping and nose diving."

Sherren rose quickly to Captain and was awarded a Bar to his Military Cross on June 4, 1917; there was no published citation so it is unclear exactly what deeds won him the additional honour. He had completed his tour with No.27 Squadron in March 1917 and was at the Central Flying School, probably learning to instruct, when the announcement was made. He returned to Canada that summer, serving with No.92 Canadian Training Squadron from August 1917 to April 1918. At war's end he was commanding No.98 Squadron. He remained with the RAF until June 1936 and was killed flying in the King's Cup Race on September 10, 1937.

Ross,

>recovering a British Martinsyde G.100 aircraft which had
>been captured and pressed into service by the Turks

That was the aircraft of Norman Steele who was shot down in April 1917 during an attack on assembling Turkish Cavalry. Steele was hit by AAA and died of his wounds on the ground. When the allies took Sheria nearly a year later they identified his body in a grave, the Turks had marked the grave with stones shaped in the manner of an airplane.



cam

[Droops]

'British Aeroplanes, 1914-1918' by J.M. Bruce, states the following about the G.100 and G.102:

Designed in 1915 as a long-range fighter, it was powered by a 120 H.P. Beardmore engine. The first production G.100s were delivered by the end of 1915, and went to France in early 1916. Since they appeared before an effective British machine-gun interrupter gear was available, the armament consisted of a Lewis gun above the center section. Also, rather curiously, a second Lewis was mounted on a mounting behind the cockpit on the port side. The latter was for firing rearwards.

The initial batch in France went to various squadrons in small numbers, to be used as escorts for the two-seaters which formed the main equipment of those units. These were Nos. 18, 20, 21, and 23 Squadron. The only unit to go to France fully equipped with Martinsydes was 27 Squadron, which arrived in March of 1916.

The plane was not a good scout. It was not so quick to answer to controls, and the pilot's view was somewhat obscured. However, its long range and load-carrying capabilities made it effective as a bomber. It was in this role that No. 27 Squadron used the aircraft until November of 1917.

The G.102 was the same aircraft with a 160 h.p. Beardmore engine in it, as well as some minor modifications. This aircraft also went to No. 27 Squadron.

The Martinsyde was used by Nos. 14 and 67 Squadron in Palestine, and Nos. 30, 63, and 72 Squadron in Mesopotamia.

G.100 and 102 aircraft were used for training purposes. Central Flying Schoo, Upavon; No. 10 Reserve Squadron, Joyce Green; No. 31 Training Squadron, Wyton; No. 39 Training Squadron, Narborough; Trainign Squadron at Dover; No. 51 Squadron.

Approximately 300 Martinsyde G.100 and G.102 aircraft were constructed. 133 went to France, and 64 to the Middle East. Bomb load of up to four 65-pounders.

The Martinsyde S.I, according to the same source, was powered by the 80 h.p. Gnôme engine. The aircraft first appeared in late 1914 and did go to France. On March 10th, 1915, No. 4 Squadron had one of these aircraft and No. 5 Squadron had two. Two months later, No.s 1, 5, and 6 had one each. Armament was a single Lewis gun mounted on the top plane. Other squadrons which had this aircraft on strength at some point were Nos. 12 and 16.

S.Is also were in the Middle East, forming a flight of No. 30 Squadron in Basra in August of 1915.

It was an S.I of No. 6 Squadron, flown by Capt. L.A. Strange, that had one of the odder incidents of the war. After firing a drum of Lewis ammunition at a German two-seater on May 10th, 1915, Strange stood to change the drum and held the stick between his knees. He lost control and the Martinsyde went into a steep climb, then an inverted spin. Strange was thrown out and was hanging on to the wedged Lewis drum. He did right the plane and get back into the seat after spinning down for more than 5,000 feet.

Again from the same source, the F.3 (a.k.a. "Mother") used the 285 h.p. Rolls-Royce engine. First tested in November 1917, it was reported to have an excellent performance. However, since the Rolls-Royce was in great demand, authorities substituted an Hispano-Suiza 300 h.p. engine. With some modifications, this was the F.4. The Buzzard was a very good plane, superior to the Snipe in many ways. Both the British and the Americans were producing the aircraft, and there were 52 on charge with the RAF on October 31st, 1918. Seven were on test and one at an aircraft acceptance park. The rest were in store. None saw operational service.

VBR,

John

[RLWP]

Many thanks Gentlemen. I particularly like the Aussie sites. You guys seem to have a great deal of pride in your old soldiers.

Hughs comment about flying the wrong aeroplane leading to obscurity seems to apply to the planes as well! Glamour seems to have come into WW1 flying with the Sopwith pup and the Fokker E111.

From this thread, am I right in assuming there were very few S1s and they had a short life (unlike the Elephants)?

Richard

(learning all the time)

[Ross_Moorhouse]

Ross,

>recovering a British Martinsyde G.100 aircraft which had
>been captured and pressed into service by the Turks

That was the aircraft of Norman Steele who was shot down in April 1917 during an attack on assembling Turkish Cavalry. Steele was hit by AAA and died of his wounds on the ground. When the allies took Sheria nearly a year later they identified his body in a grave, the Turks had marked the grave with stones shaped in the manner of an airplane.

cam

The Turks must of had alot of respect for him if they went to all that trouble of marking his grave in such a manner.

[Ross_Moorhouse]

Many thanks Gentlemen. I particularly like the Aussie sites. You guys seem to have a great deal of pride in your old soldiers.

(learning all the time)

You should see the pride we show on ANZAC Day here.

Last year the RSL and the Government wanted to try to change ANZAC Day and incorporate it into Australia Day. Well on ANZAC Day there are marches here in most major towns and all the cities. All the Vets that can march do so through the streets under the banner of their old units.

So when it was announced that there was this idea of combining the 2 different Public Days, ANZAC & Australia, the youth of Australia swelled the ranks of the marching Vets and marched along side them.

It was moving to see grandchildren of Vets marching with their grandparents. Some marched in place of their long gone elders. They wore their grandparents medals with pride.

The crowds that watched the marches was one of the largets ever, at least here in Sydney it was. This showed both the RSL and the Government not to touch one of the most sacred days we have.

So yes we love our vets very much so.