Fokker Streaky Camouflage Fabric

AchimEngels · 10 August 2002, 09:42 AM

Hi all!

Fokker streaky camouflage scheme long time test.

As might already be known here for most of you from other discussion rounds many of you hold the view, that a turquoise is contained in Fokkers' paint.

The FOKKER-TEAM-SCHORNDORF was always of the opinion that this is not correct. What the FTS comes on, stands quite away from the generally predominant view about the complete structure of the Fokker streaky view protection paint.

By the detailed studies of historic photographs, documents and reports concerning the appearence of the Fokker streaky camouflage paint, the FTS draws the conclusion, that the paint was actually executed in a much more simple way then usually accepted and that it that way even was much more effective.

To find out more about the matter, we have started a long time test today. And we want to show and discuss the results here in detail.

The attempt is it to notice which influence the protective coat with lineseed oil varnish has on the optical appearence of the single colours.

To this end we have a contemporary 85 years old linen cloth pulled on a frame and treated it just like this accepts FTS at that time was done, too.

At first the fabric was pulled up on the frame tightly and then stretched with a dope from cellulose acetate. *After every paint with dope the surface was sanded slightly. The application of the streaky paint was then so carried out that at first one layer was scantily applied of light cold grey. Another paint was then applied with an olive green hue in the same way on top of the first paint. In this way a very simple camouflage paint scheme of three colors arose which in turn was even of very light weight. The translucent beige/brown of the fabric, the cold blueish/grey of the underside as well as the olive green.

Following this as a reference and decoration the "Fokker" factory Works-Number 2002 was applied (this was Fok. DR I 418/17).

At the end the whole was covered with a protective coat of lineseed oil varnish.

An optical change of the applied colours showed up immediately after aplying the lineseed oil varnish. The lineseed oil exerted the least influence on the appearence of the olive green. The natural colour of the linen cloth was changed already by the dope in a firm beige and after the coating with lineseed oil varnish ran into a brownish color. The influence of the lineseed oil on the cold blueish/grey colour was remarkable. This changed - as expected - noticeably into a very pale light blue/turquoise.

The idea of the test is to expose the fabric piece for a period of about 3-4 months to wind, rain and sun. The normal operating conditions of the aeroplanes shall hereby be simulated at that time. *The observations are documented in regular distances.

To the meaningfulness of the test the following can be said. The influence of the lineseed oil on the phenotype of the colours can be taken as exemplary for aeroplanes at that time. It just is the same with the linen cloth as well as the dope on cellulose azetate basis, since these also correspond to the materials used at that time. The used laquer paints should not be judged representatively, since these do not agree with the compositions of the colors in use at that time. However we did not use light true paints here.

The course of the test should be interesting however.

Photographs of the experiment of 10-8-2002 are enclosed.

Fabric, dope, paint.

Fabric, dope, paint, Works-No.

Fabric, dope, paint, Works-No., protective lineseed oil varnish, flashlight dot *;D

Lyle · 11 August 2002, 09:18 AM

Dear Achim,
This test is a fascinating look into what the Fokker Flugzeugwerke might have done on the Dr.I--I am curious, what was your formula for the olive dope? Was it the mix of colors mentioned on that Fok. E.V drawing, i.e. Azure Blue, Mocha Brown, New True Green and 'Azin' brand violet?
The gray becoming a bluish tint with the application of linseed oil varnish is particularly interesting. Looking forward to more reports from you on this...
VBR,
Lyle

AchimEngels · 11 August 2002, 10:06 AM

Hi Lyle,

We have been experimenting with what was given in the factory drawings for the Fokker Dr.I.

We have a strong believe that the olive was mixed up from the 500gr of blue laquer paint mixed whith what is given as 5gr aniline color powder. Unfortunately there is not given the color hue of the aniline powder. A olive green came up when mixing the blue laquer paint with 5gr of ocher yellow.

The light cold blue gray could have been achived by mixing together the 1kg zincoxide with the 250gr ultramarine mentioned with the list.

Unfortunalety the lists of material for the three wings of the triplane did not give any detailed information on the use of these paints and/or paint components. So all we did was guessing.

The lineseed varnish is almost dry now so that we soon can begin to expose the fabric to the elements. I am especially looking forward to see what the sun will do!

It would be very interesting if we would know how long Fokker used to let the paint dry until another coat was applied. With the test conducted so far we did apply the first paint of blueish/gray immediately after the last coat of dope was dry. The second layer of the olivegreen was applied before the blueish/gray was dry so that they could mix. We think that the painters at the Fokker plant did it the same way. The final coat of lineseed protective paint was also applied only a few hours after the colors have been painted on. This way the whole thing was done whithin two days.

We will prepare another larger panel which will resemble a fuselage side. This one we will do with each coat getting fully dry before applying the next - Just to compare the effect of both pieces in the end.

If there are any other suggestions of what to investigate in detail let us know!

Best
Achim

PS: One should be carefull with using the English translations of what was given in German on the Fokker E.V drawings. These translations do not match very well with what was meant in German. Apart from that some things are just brand names that do not allow any conclusion of what color it actually was.

12 August 2002, 05:27 AM

G'day, Achim--

You and FTS are to be commended for undertaking this worthwhile, and long overdue, experiment. *

There is a point I do not quite understand from your description of the the order of painting, namely,

Quote:

The application of the streaky paint was then so carried out that at first one layer was scantily [thinly?] applied of light cold grey. . .In this way a very simple camouflage paint scheme of three colors arose which in turn was even of very light weight. The translucent beige/brown of the fabric, the cold blueish/grey of the underside as well as the olive green.

By this I understand that the gray was applied in the same "streaky" manner as we are familiar from the appearance of the darker (green/olive) tone in photographs of these finishes and that there are areas therefore where the fabric substrate shows through. *Can you confirm?

Some further questions and comments:

1. On what basis was the choice made to apply the gray in this manner? *What is the basis for the particular choice of gray? *Did your examination of the fabric at IWM come into these choices?

2. Scans 1 and 2 (addition of Werke no. prior to application of oil varnish) present distinctly different appearance of the olive hue especially. *Is this a scanning/photography articfact?

3. I do not see a clear area of the shift to a sky blue/turquoise anywhere in scan 3. *This is not meant to contradict your report that such a shift actually is visible first hand.

4. As you suggest in answer to Lyle, everythig depends on the choice of starting hues. *As you indicate, these remain guesswork. *It would be fair, therefore, to suggest that future experiments, if undertaken, should incorporate a range of possible starting points for each color; additionally, it would be interesting to apply the paints to opaque surfaces to replicate their application to metal surfaces such as cowlings and struts, where the influence of the underlying surface will, presumably, have been minimized.

I look forward to hearing the results of the aging and weathering phase of the experiment.

With best regards,
Stefen

AchimEngels · 12 August 2002, 07:24 AM

Hello SteffenK,

I thought you would jump on this *

And as usual you ask the right questions *

O.K., first thing I would like to mention is that this will become a multi level experiment of which this one is just the first step. I hope to get some insperations of what else might be of interest from postings like your´s.

By the way, the origin of the fabric used for this first phase, as for the upcomming ones, was the same the piece I sent to you came from. You remember? That one I got from my grandma.

Well, now to your questions:

1. Yes in our opinion the "blueish/grey" was applied the same way as the olive was. (scantly = thinly)

a. This is what we see in all the photographs that are available to us. I have posted one to illustrate this with my previous thread on the "Fokker Factory Streaky Finish" (which one I lost out of sight, unfortunately).

here is another copy for you to see what I mean:

b. I do not think that this can be explained by a difference in tranclucent value of the olive green paint. This is a totaly different color which was not paid attention to before. You can see this at many photographs.

c. Another evidience is the quantity of the paint components given with the Fokker factory drawings that would mix up for the underside paint. This would be about 2 Liters of paint for one wing alone!!!! Too much for a undersurface alone. Of course only in my eye again.

d. This whithout doubt generates a very usefull, smple and light weighting multicolor shade camouflage paint.

e. Wouldn´t you have done the same? *???

f. No, I have not been to the IWM yet, since it turned out that the fabrics held there are just 50mm times 50mm in size. I have still in mind to go there, but for now I will relay on what Dave Watts tells us, since he is there just now and takes a look. I do not feel like his observations will bring us much new things. We can not even use any shades of colors he might tell, since these are 85 years old. Our experiments have just to get that old to compare with today´s observations of original triplane or any other Fokker paint pieces.

2. Yes it is. Apart from that light was changing that day and I do not have an idea how to eliminate these effects to produce compareable images. My idea now is to cut the fabric to small pieces in the end, putting them on data sheets and adding a piece of untreated (no paint, no dope, no wheathering) fabric, a small field of the actual paints whithout the oil varnishes and some inscriptions. Some of these I will give away free to you and other interested researchers for direct compare. Some I will offer for sale on ebay.

3. The shift exists. In order to create the piece in a way it could have been done at Fokker, I paid not much attention to the contribution of the paint. Unfortunately by doing so a large plain field of the light underside color is underneath the green now *

. The shift to a very pale light turquoise is nevertheless very clearly visible. You will see at the end when I send you your sample.

4. The experiment will be carefully documented (copies will come with your piece). This way we will be able to compare all the pieces at the end directly and to see how they differed and what influences caused what change.

I have not yet thought about applying the paint on metal surfaces such like aluminium or steel to see how they come out. This is one of the usefull suggestions I hoped to receive here - Nobody is perfect! *;D Thanks for this suggestion.

Any more questions so far?

best
Achim

Dan_San_Abbott · 12 August 2002, 08:01 PM

Lyle:
The four stains listed on the Fokker E.V wing drawing, azure blue, mocha brown, true green and violet were used to stain the wings in a streaked pattern prior to being varnished. Thw true green and mocha brown were applied to the upper surface and the azure blue and violet to the lower surface of the wing.
There are photographs that illustrate this streaking. I have copyrighted this information else where in a report and drawings.
Blue skies,

14 August 2002, 05:57 AM

G’day, Achim,

Thank you for your detailed reply, and appreciate your including me among the membership of the “Society for the Study of the Streaky Finish.” *I look forward to seeing the results of your work first-hand.

You appear to have hypothesized that the streaky finish presented a three-color appearance of “tan” (linen), light blue/green (color-shifted gray), and olive (color-shifted green). *Why? *I am unaware of this appearance being noted in the historical record. *In *two of Barfoot-Saunt’s Salvage Reports on Dr. Is the scheme is described as dark and light greens, essentially a two-color pattern.

The photo of the Dr.I you posted provides an excellent example of the streaky finish indeed, but I disagree that the lighter areas can be identified quite so precisely as your indications suggest. *In particular, the righthand area appears to nearly match the gray value of the interplane strut and could as easily be something in the (light) blue-green family.

My own hypotheses and random notes:
1. “True Green” was, well, a true green, perhaps something along the lines of USAAC “Medium Green” at the darker end or USAF “Vietnam Green.” *If your first scan is accurate, you have already started with hue that is on the olive, desaturated side of the spectrum.
2. “Azure,” or sky blue, was, if “light” or “pale,” nonetheless a fairly strong color, not something along the lines of RAF “Sky” or Luftwaffe Hellblau of WWII, as not infrequently chosen by modelers and artists today. *The high value rendition of (“light”) blue on orthochromatic emulsions, the result of oversensitivity in this specttral region, appears to be neglected in the choice often made. *The appearance of French roundel blue, a color for which there appears to be better documentation, can be used as a benchmark for such blues. *The partially shadowed tail in the scan below presents a typical representation of this color, perhaps even a bit darker than usual, that almost exactly matches the interplane strut in your triplane example (this structure being a good choice from which to sample):

Going further afield, two photos of Finnish Brewster Model 239 are also instructive with regard to the grayscale rendition a number of colors of interest to WWI researchers. *The dark appearance of the yellow fuselage theater band is diagnostiic of an exposure on orthochromatic film. *The appearance of the “light” blue national insignia is of note, as is that of the olive green camouflage. *The photos have, I believe, something to tell regarding one of the continuing controversies about a certain triplane.

What is the source for the use of the term “turquoise” anyway? *Does it have historical support?

3. I believe the experimental protocol should include application of colors in a “wet-in-wet” technique as wings in particular, when visible, often seem to suggest such a method of painting.

4. Finally, I have for some time suspected that “underside” blue served as the base color for both tops and bottoms as the fuselage return and the horizontal tail bordering would have been more easily achieved by masking off a previously applied base color than overpainting the dark streaky finish. *I am gratified that you are exploring this possibility.

Best wishes aus New York,
Stefen

AchimEngels · 14 August 2002, 07:55 AM

Stefen,

let me again answer you step by step.

1. I know of course that this three color hypothesis is nothing mentioned previously.

Here are my reasons for this. Please let us make clear here that this of course is an assumption of mine so far. It may well be that you and the documents you mention are right on that and that I am wrong. There is no use to discuss this since I do not see any proof (until now) of being wrong, nor do I see a proof that I am right. It is just another approach and something that should be considered.

Here we go:

a.) we have the remains of what is said to have come from 144/17 held at the Imperial War Museum at London. According to the investigations on these fabric samples executed by Paul Leaman there was the olive green and underneath that what is described as "turqoise" and was identified so kindly by Dan-San with the Methuen book of colors numbers.

b.) the way those colors are applied onto the fabric may well influence the general appearance of an aircraft bearing this paint sheme. One might have looked more green, another one more blueish and a third one more tan (linen color).

c.) taking into account the way the salvage reports might have been carried out the describtion of an aircraft painted in several green shades may well fit into this figure. A two color appearance and a describtion that way may well have been correct for those aircraft.

d.) a three color sheme achieved the way I suggest would be something that lays on hand when working with those colors.

e.) the photographs (not only the one I included above) "indicate" that mix of two colors and the natural linen -at least in my eyes. *: *???

Here is another one which makes me see this:

2. The colors you reffer to have been taken from the drawing of the Fokker D.VIII and are for sure not true paints. These have been powders to color a paint. I have unfortunately never seen the original drawing giving the German words for those colors and their quantity. That way we do relay on the person who did those translations. This is too vague for me and does not lead me anywhere. I relay on the German words given with the Fokker triplane drawings which I have here copies of.

The matter of these paints and designation of these are a very complicated thing. The FTS is working here together with Mr. Kiroff (www.rlm-farben.de). Mr. Kiroff is the owner of a paint developing company here who also creates and recreates vintage paints for aircraft and other vehicles. He will for sure join this discussion later on. We will also conduct more much more detailed experiments at a later time. This will become very interesting.

4. I am not expert enough with the influence of type of films used to take those images. So I have to trust what you say here.

5. The source of the term "turqoise" is mentioned above. One of the major attempts with these testings is to find out how differend types of paint change during the duration of the experiment. So we will have to wait what experiment brings up the best "turqoise" to match with the samples at the IWM

6. I absolutely agree with you on the wet on wet paint applicaton. This would on one hand save time and on the other increase the total number of color shades. And imagine an aircraft almost completely covered with light blueish grey over which a olive was aplied in that wet on wet methode. Would that not leve the impression of an overall green airplane as described in the selvage reports?

AchimEngels · 14 August 2002, 08:18 AM

7. I do not agree that the aircraft was totally painted in the underside color first with a mask at the bottom longeron at the fuselage leaving that underside color paint "frame" after being removed. There are two resons for this:

a.) this would add up weight that would not be required.

b.) that would leave us with a two color paint sheme as described in the selvage reports, but for what reason? Reducing a potential three color sheme that would be much simpler and requires less paint to such a two color sheme?

c.) I can not see any use of any mask in the paints of Fokker aircraft. When taking a close look at the letterings you will find enough irregularities to tell these have been painted on by hand. They look smooth and straight at first glance only. The same is for the white fields. I see no reson why the border should not have been achieved by just pulling a straight underside color line there. The painters at Fokker for sure have been well practised. That border just looked nice nothing else. It was a fashion. Nothing more. You will not note it on previous aircraft types and not on later ones.

These last reasons again bring us back to why I think it was three color camouflage paint scheme that sometimes turned out more green, another time more blueish (see Voss`aircraft described as such) or another time more browny. They never looked like one another. Areal circus!

Achim

AchimEngels · 14 August 2002, 09:20 AM

OK, it´s just me again.

Stefen,

With all those different paint methods I will check out and all the data obtained through these experiments (I will also do testings of fabric painted in the underside color completely befor the olive being applied, and with such only painted in green), what is still missing?

A comparisation of the appearence of all these different panels with those old images.

What would we need to get this comparisation done? A camara and the films they used back then I guess. Do you have access to such stuff?

I would agree to produce panels large enough to resemble a half fuselage side of the Fokker Triplane. We could go and photograph these in the end with vintage material (camera, films glass plates whatsoever).

What do you think? Any ideas how to expand the experiments to cover this?

Best
Achim