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2001 Closed threads from 2001 (read only)

 
 
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Old 17 June 2001, 05:18 AM   #1
Nick
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According to the today in history page for 17th June, Billy Bishop got his 63rd, 64th and 65th victories in 1917. By my reckoning, this meant he was ahead of MvR who was in the 50's region at this point in time. I was always under the (unfounded) impression that MvR was the "leading scorer" from when he overtook Boelke's score of 40 until the end of the war. I guess I was wrong!

Are there any other pilots who were temporarily ahead of MvR at any time after he got his 40th?

Was he even top scorer when he got 40?

In fact, how many times did the title of ace of aces change hands?

Thanks in advance

Nick
 
Old 17 June 2001, 05:47 AM   #2
Tailspin Tom
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René Fonck. If the Germans had not lied, obliterated records and generally been dishonest to promote their Trutonic ideas of what "Kultur" should have been, he would have been the top ranking ace in WW-I. But, Boche being Boche, they protected their beloved Manfred to the point of absurdity. Actually, this was at der Kaiser's hints and little pressures. More gratuitous mischief from the originator of bombing civilians.
Sorry about that, Rene, you were the best far and away, but you should have killed all of them on your own side of the lines...you knew how the German propaganda machine always lied about everything.
And,I doubt that you will ever be given recognition. Most of the present crop of "historians" simply read the writings of others and re-phrase them. In school, if you did that you got a failing grade and had to stay after to clean the blackboards. My, how times have changed.
 
Old 17 June 2001, 05:54 AM   #3
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Besides the controversy surrounding Bishop, it's been stated several times that it's unfair to compare the scores of the opposing aces in such a straightforward way. Perhaps it's better to say how many of Bishop's first 65 victories are
A) classified as destroyed or captured
and
B) unshared

Perhaps something for Al?
 
Old 17 June 2001, 07:27 AM   #4
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Bishop had not more than 26 on 17th June 1917.
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Old 17 June 2001, 07:44 AM   #5
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Comparing personal victory claims or even overclaiming is to miss the point. There were hundreds of lowly artillery gunners on all sides who killed more of their enemies than all the aces combined. A fighter pilots job then and now is the same; to deny the use of the sky by his enemy by any means possible. The idea behind victory claims is for purposes of morale in general and to provide a tangible (at a personal level) measure of progress for the fighter pilot.
 
Old 17 June 2001, 09:23 AM   #6
Frank_Olynyk
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The entry in Today in History is wrong. It should be 1918, not 1917.

Frank.
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Old 17 June 2001, 11:46 AM   #7
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And, by that correction, Bishop was ALWAYS behind MvR in the scoring race. By June 17, 1918, MvR was dead, with 80 confirmed to his credit. Bishop's highest total that he would reach was 72.

VBR,

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Old 19 June 2001, 05:23 AM   #8
João Mauricio
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The date should be june 1918, so Bishop was not ahead of Richthofen
As to the Ace of aces matter it was never a complication.I dont know who the first ace was but guys like Adolphe Pegoud were ace of aces early in the war. Then it was Boelcke of course until his death in Oct 1916. After Boelcke the highest scorer(in activity) was Albert Ball who was surpassed by von Richthofen i beleive in April or March 1917. Richthofen never ceased to be Ace of aces until then end of the war. After he died the mantle passed to maybe Lowenhardt and then to Bishop and Fonck depending on the increasing of their scores.
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