"Vieux Charles"

[stevedrew]

Forum,
I recently visited the Musee deL'Air and L'Espace at Le Bourget Aerodrome in Paris.
There is an old SPAD aircraft on display there, named "Viuex Charles", and painted to depict Georges Guynemer's aircraft. The gentleman in the shop there told me that was an original aircraft. Now, I thought Guynemer "went West" flying "Vieux Charles", and was not seen or heard of again. Did he have a "spare" aircraft painted in his colour scheme for when his "No. 1 steed" was down for maintenance, or was this painted a Guynemer's aircraft after the war, or at least after he went missing?
Thanks in advance,
Steve Drew

Guynemer named his SPAD VII, one of the first issued, "Old Charles." He later developed an arrangement where his SPAD VII fired a 37 mm cannon through the propeller shaft. This SPAD was called 'Magic Machine.' I would surmise that 'Vieux Charles' was retired before Guynemer's final mission on 11 September 1917.

[PeterL]

The first a/c Guynemer had allocated as his own was a Morane L whick had already been named "Vieux Charles" by it's previous "owner". Guynemer adopted the name and applied it to all his subsequent a/c save the SXIII in which he died, possibly there wasn't time. The "Vieux Charles" at Le Bourget is one of his earlier machines and is wholly original right down to the fabric. I have a bit of a web page on the subject at Storks

hth
Peter L

[Rod_Filan]

So as not to be completely outdone by Peter's Most Brilliant Stork site...
I've assembled a few photos at Georges Guynemer, his Gun Camera and his SPADs

VBR
Rod

[PeterL]

Why Ro§bud, cut it out. The site is way overdue for updating. I've come across several new images I can use, some of which you already know about, and there are at least a couple of factual errors or ommitions in the bio. For instance; does anyone know of the truth behind the Udet/Guynemer fight? Udet's account has Guynemer in a SPAD, but by my reckoning it should have been a Nieuport 17 at that date (mid-1916) Anybody?

I intended to post this first time around but my medication must be wearing off. It shows the aircraft on arrival at Le Bourget in the early eighties. Prior to that it was in the Palais des Envalides

cheers

Peter L

According to the excellent book,"Guynemer, les Avions d'un As" by Klaeyle and Osche, he flew at least nine different aircraft that bore that "moniker" that can be photographically proven, the first of these a Nieuport 10B with the serial number N 320. The photo is from November 1915. I haven't seen any Morane aircraft marked as such, but then again maybe there aren't any existing photographs to prove it. The name is associated to Clement Julien Bonnard, Sergent Pilot, attached to MS 3 in April 1915. Leter went to Serbia. According to an article published in a 1919 issue of the French illustrated magazine "La Guerre Aerienne Ilustree" a sous-lieutenant Constantini reported that Guynemer had taken over a single-seat 18m Nieuport with an 80 hp Le Rhone, and that it had been christened with the nickname "Le Vieux Charles." The 18 meter Nieuport refers to the Nieuport 10 two-seater, or in this case the 10B which was a single-seat version of it. The Nieuport 11 was the 13 meter Nieuport, and the 17 was the 15 meter Nieuport.

The nine Vieux Charles aircraft were as follows:

Vieux Charles #1: Nieuport 10 N 320 80 h.p. Le Rhone
Vieux Charles #2: Nieuport 11 N 836 80 h.p. Le Rhone
Vieux Charles #3: Nieuport 10 N 328 110 h.p. Le Rhone
Vieux Charles #4: Nieuport 17 N 1531 110-120 h.p. Le Rhone
Vieux Charles #5: Nieuport 17 N 1530 110-120 h.p. Le Rhone
Vieux Charles #6: SPAD VII S 115 150 h.p. Hispano-Suiza
Vieux Charles #7: SPAD VII S 132 150 h.p. Hispano-Suiza
Vieux Charles #8: SPAD VII S 254 180 h.p. Hispano-Suiza
Vieux Charles #9: SPAD XII S 382 200 h.p. Hispano-Suiza and 37mm Hotchkiss cannon

The Udet vs. Guynemer encounter didn't happen until 1917 I believe. What is your source for that early 1916 date? If it was that early then Udet wouldn've still been on a Fokker E.III or .IV or possibly a Fokker D.II. The D.II-IIIs didn't arrive at the front until September. Udet definitely flew a Fokker D.III but my feeling from accounts I've read is that it happened much later. Also, Guynemer flew SPAD S.VIIs from beginning of September 1916 onwards. He also flew aircraft of other pilots in the squadron and not just "Vieux Charles." He flew type Nieuport 16 (Bucquet's), Deullin's type 17 and SPAD VIIs on several accasions, and others.

I didn't mean to infer that Udet definitely flew a Fokker D.III during the encounter. I re-read what I typed in a hurry and didn't want to give that impression. Only that it is confirmed that Udet flew a Fokker D.III in Fall-late 1916 while stationed at KEK Habsheim which became Jasta 15.

[rammjaeger]

In his book "Mein Fliegerleben" (German edition)Udet is describing the incident on page 57-60.
Before the description of this incident Udet is reporting Vizefeldwebel Eichenhauer (in fact Eichenauer) died on 4th June 1917 (page 57). On page 60 Udet reports Gontermann came back on 19th June 1917. If Udet was not in error in his book and if the counterpart was really Guynemer - then it happened within these 15 days.

[PeterL]

Aaron, I only have published sources at my disposal and this came from a bio in a French magazine. I suppose it is possible that this is a misprint, certainly the corroboration provided by you and Hannes suggests as much. The same article has a picture of the aformentioned Morane L. If I can dig it out I'll post it here, but things are a bit disorganised here at the moment.

cheers

Peter L