









|
| 2001 Closed threads from 2001 (read only) |
1 September 2001, 07:27 PM
|
#1
|
|
Two-seater Pilot
Join Date: Oct 1998
Location: Randfontein
Posts: 245
|
Hi all
Was there any science behind the Lozenge cammo pattern? Using "unnatural" colours like purple and pink suggests that the object was to achieve a blend that would be viewed as a single colour from a distance (almost the same way that modern inkjets use different colour combinations).
If this is the case how far away from the plane did this start to happen? Or was the trick just breaking up the silouette of the plane in the same way that dazzle cammo on ships were used?
VBR
Vic
__________________
Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy - Benjamin Franklin
|
|
|
2 September 2001, 01:27 AM
|
#2
|
|
Forum Ace of Aces
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Germany
Posts: 4,654
|
Hello Vic!
Maybe this website will be a help for you:
http://www.wwiaviation.com/lozenge.shtml
I will look for further information as soon as possible.
Best regards!
Volker Nemsch
__________________
Best regards from Germany
Volker Nemsch
"My words came out fine. The problem is that they were incorrectly processed by your brain."
(???)
"Much to learn, you still have."
(Yoda)
"I never said all that shit!"
(Confucius)
|
|
|
2 September 2001, 05:30 AM
|
#3
|
|
Two-seater Pilot
Join Date: Oct 1998
Location: Randfontein
Posts: 245
|
Hi Volker
Thanks. Quite an interesting site, While I am at it, do you know why the Germans used purple on the Alb wing (Not the lozenge pattern). One should think that brown, grey or another shade of green would be a lot better than purple. I even noticed a pattern of red and green in RB3d. Not to shure if that was close to the real thing though
VBR
Vic
__________________
Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy - Benjamin Franklin
|
|
|
2 September 2001, 06:03 AM
|
#4
|
|
Forum Ace of Aces
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Germany
Posts: 4,654
|
The only thing I know is that the change from brown to purple was somewhere in late 1916 / early 1917.
But I don´t know why. Purple is at least not a very common colour in the countryside. *
Maybe ´rammjäger´ or ´Dan-San´ will know more.
Best regards
Volker Nemsch
__________________
Best regards from Germany
Volker Nemsch
"My words came out fine. The problem is that they were incorrectly processed by your brain."
(???)
"Much to learn, you still have."
(Yoda)
"I never said all that shit!"
(Confucius)
|
|
|
2 September 2001, 12:04 PM
|
#5
|
|
Forum Ace of Aces
Join Date: Sep 1998
Location: Dresden
Posts: 4,595
|
I can as well only speculate on this matter.
In theory the colours yellow, Cyan (blue-green) and magenta (purpur) result in black if mixed. In fact the combination of these colours is resulting in a kind of coloured dark grey. So the purpur was maybe better fitting to achieve this wished unobtrusive and adaptable camouflage colour.
As well purpur is not so often to find in the landscape but in the light of the morning or evening dawn purpur is maybe a well-suited colour in a camou pattern as well.
Sometimes practical reasons could influence the choice of the clours too, for example the simple availability of colours and the practical results of tests.
Sorry, I can´t tell more - I am not Kandinsky and did not study documents about lozenge. Possibly Dan-San can give more valuable hints here.
|
|
|
2 September 2001, 04:57 PM
|
#6
|
|
Scout Pilot
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 452
|
Gentlemen,
This subject was covered in an earlier thread on the old Forum if you care to check the archives.A quick overview is as follows:
The actual inventor or desiger of lozenge fabric is not known. The concept is based on the concept of pointilism, a school of modern art, the principle proponent of which was Georges Seurat whose most well known work is AN AFTERNOON ON THE GRAND JATTE. The method was to create a painting using a series of dots (your reference to pixels is right on)of different colors. viewed from a distance these dots blend together to form areas of color.
Modern phisiological psychology research has shown that when a subject such as lozenge fabric with its varied colors is viewed from a distance a blending of these color occurs within the MIND of the viewer and the camoflaged object is seen as the same color as is predominate in the backround upon which it is interposed.
Regarding the choice of colors,Firstly,The mauve one sees on Albatros fighters is not purple It's more of a brownish pink (Dan -San has the Methuen reference but I don't have it to hand).
The purples, pinks browns and greens are all found in that area and in that light at that latitude.Little is more varied than sunlight because of atmospheric conditions but early and late the ground does reflect the shorter wavelengths(blue) while the sky will have the longer wavelengths(red)Colors will literally change from minute to minute. Which is why the lozenge fabric was so effective.
The question in my mind is,why did this idea fall into disuse.My best quess is that it is lots harder to paint on metal than print on fabric.
Hope this helps,
Terry Crisp
__________________
"The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: It connected in one indissoluable bond the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity" President Adams 7/4/1821
|
|
|
2 September 2001, 07:54 PM
|
#7
|
|
Rest in Peace
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Ceres, California
Posts: 9,118
|
PRINTED AIRCRAFT FABRICS.
Part 1 Five color printed fabric.
* * This a complex subject, so I'll tell as much as I know about it. I have made a study of the lozenge patterns and colors over a period of forty-five years. I believe the inspiration for the camouflage scheme was from the impressionist school of art that exsisted in Europe at the turn of the 20th Century. In their thinking, was using dots of unmixed color adjacent to another and letting the eye perceive the colors and the brain doing the mixing. The colors are somewhat bright a vibrant, they were not dark and dull as some illustrators have depicted. At a distance, the colors are muted, the top colors becoming a greyish green and the bottom colors a greyish pink.
I have in my collection, samples of both the upper and lower four color and five color fabrics. For other collectors, I have examined and authenticated six other samples, of both the four and five color samples, as well as the Kriegmarine 3 color hexagonal pattern. *In the upper and lower four and five color day samples I HAVE FOUND NO VARIATIONS IN THE COLORS.
* * The source of the irregular polygon printed fabrics, was the Inspektion der Fliegertruppe, (Idflieg). Because of the critical situation, Idflieg wanted to find a means of conserving dyes, oils and paints used in the various camouflage schemes and at the same time reduce cost, aircraft weight and as an aid in speeding up production through the means of eliminating the painting of the camouflage scheme. In 1916, Idfleig acquired the rights to a patent issued for a printed camouflage system of irregular polygons printed in a continous pattern on linen aircraft fabric in five colors in a dark pattern for the upper surfaces, and in five lighter colors for the under surfaces. The printing rollers, one for each color, were 1500 mm wide.*The fabric would be applied to the aircraft in the normal manner used by each manufacturer. This eliminated the necessity of the painting the camouflage scheme, the paint, and the time required to do it as well as the weight of the paint. *Idflieg specifed the *printing to completely the cover the fabric edge to edge of the*woven fabric, which was 1340 ±10 mm wide. Lozenge, is an incorrect definition of the irregular polygons in the pattern. A lozenge is a four sided geometric form simular to the diamond, in playing cards. The irregular polygons are are 4,5 and 6 sided polygons.
* * *On 5 April 1917, a directive were sent out to the German aircraft industry, telling them of the new printed fabric. They were informed to order their fabric from the Neue Augsburger Kattunfabrik (New Augburg Cotton Factory). *And they were instructed to use the dark pattern on the top surfaces and the light pattern on the bottom surfaces. They were told to use the new printed fabric in the same manner in which they were covering their aircraft now. They were further directed to dope the printed fabric with a matte dope the firm, Cohn, Belin-Neuköln. All the other exposed parts of the aircraft were to be painted in colors that match the colors of the printed fabric. The number of coats of dope applied by the manufacturers varied two or three on fuselages and three to five coats on the wings and tail surfaces. The doped surfaces were given one coat of clear copal varnish to waterproof the doped fabric surfaces. The varnish had a yellow cast to it, which slightly altered the colors of the printed polygons.
An oddity was, that at the time Halberstadt and Seimens-Schukert covered the top surfaces of their respective aircraft, DFW C.V(halb), Halb Cl.II and the SSW D.III with the lower fabric and used plain unprinted fabric on the under surfaces in contradiction to the instructions from Idflieg. There may have been other firms that did the same thing, however, at this time I have found no evidence of it.
* * *The first evidence of an Albatros aircraft being covered with the printed fabric, was on a Alb.D.V around serial number 2225/17 about July 1917.
End of Part 1.
|
|
|
3 September 2001, 10:06 AM
|
#8
|
|
Two-seater Pilot
Join Date: Oct 1998
Location: Randfontein
Posts: 245
|
Hi Dan
This looks like a subject one can really get one's teeth into. Did any army use the lozenge idea after the Great war or was that the end of it?
VBR
Vic
__________________
Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy - Benjamin Franklin
|
|
|
3 September 2001, 12:50 PM
|
#9
|
|
Rest in Peace
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Ceres, California
Posts: 9,118
|
PRINTED AIRCRAFT FABRICS.
Part 2. Four Color Printed fabrics,
* * The Fokker Flugzeugwerke G.m.b.H. did not use the new five color fabric, but continued to use their streaked camouflage scheme on aircraft that they were building during this period, the Fok.D.V, AEG. C.IV(Fok) and the Fok.DR.I. All the Fokker built aircraft had been covered with plain unbleach linen fabric. The first aircraft that used printed fabric was the Fok. D.VII, but only on the wings, the fuselage and tail surfaces were still covered with plain unbleached linen fabric and painted in the standard Fokker streaked camouflage scheme. The wings were not covered with the five color printed fabric, but with a new four color printed fabric. *This four color day printed fabric, in dark colors for the upper surfaces, and light colors for the bottom surfaces, were different from the five color pattern in geometric design, pattern repeat and the colors. *I do not believe this four color design originated at Idflieg, who totally controlled the five color fabric, but, I believe was the designed at the Fokker FlugzeugWerke. *
* * *Anthony Fokker, in my mind, was a business genious, he wanted to control his business in total and be the master of his ship! *He built a vertical business, and in doing so, did not become a victim of his suppliers.
I do not know for a fact, that Anthony Fokker was the owner of the four color fabric, it is a strong suspicion I have, that makes me believe this. The four color fabric first appeared on the wings of the Fokker D.VII in March 1918. *Albatros and OAW used the four color fabric on the Fok. D.VII aircraft they built under license. They also use the five color fabric on some of their Fok. D.VII production. They never used any of the four color fabric on other aircraft they built. *The four color fabric was used on the Fok. D.VI, Fok.E.V/D/VIII and on almost all Fokker built Fok. D.VII aircraft. There was some of the early Fok. D.VII covered with the five color fabric, however about two thirds of the late production starting around Fok. D.VII 7700/18 and onwards wer covered with five color fabric.
* * * The L.F.G.Roland D.VIa were covered with the four color fabric, however the later production
Rol. D.VIb were covered with five color fabric.
NIGHT PRINTED FABRIC.
Part 3.
* * * Idflieg directed that night flying aircraft be completely covered with the day dark upper pattern five color fabric. *Further, Idflieg directed that night flying aircraft have plain unbordered matte black Iron Crosses. *At a later date, Idflieg came up with a new five color night fabric printed in black, two dark blues, purple and dark green and this was used on all late production bombers in 1918.
Dan-San Abbott
|
|
|
3 September 2001, 12:55 PM
|
#10
|
|
Rest in Peace
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Ceres, California
Posts: 9,118
|
Vic:
France, Great Britain and the U.S. did some experiment with printed fabric, but dropped the idea. The printed fabric did not provided sufficient protection from the actinic rays of the sun.
Blue skies,
Dan-San
|
|
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
Similar Threads
|
| Thread |
Thread Starter |
Forum |
Replies |
Last Post |
|
Lozenge Fun
|
Kitboy |
Models |
8 |
26 November 2006 07:05 PM |
|
Naval Lozenge
|
bobs_buckles |
Models |
3 |
28 February 2005 02:15 PM |
|
Lozenge 101
|
Lyle |
Flying Models |
7 |
24 July 2004 07:18 PM |
|
Lozenge Camoflage
|
Blue Euc |
2001 |
7 |
4 February 2001 12:00 PM |
|
Lozenge
|
Craig |
2000 |
9 |
18 May 2000 05:08 AM |
As an Amazon Associate we earn from qualifying purchases.
All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:03 PM.
|