Bréguet's Aircraft ID Challenge # 564

[Varese2002]

Bréguet's Aircraft ID Challenge # 564

The new machine
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The score at the start of #564

103.00 Varese2002 ☼
73.70 Dave_Kent ☼
59.60 Rbailey ☼
31.30 Cruze ☼
18.70 YavorD
18.15 Froggy
16.50 Aquilius
13.60 Flamingo
13.30 Rod Filan
11.90 richard B
09.50 matte_kudasai
08.40 JohnMacG
08.10 Breguet
07.70 Dan-San
07.70 EdStevens
07.60 trp81
07.40 Lodzermensch
07.30 Patrick
07.10 Colin A. Owers
06.70 Ampovandak
06.10 joegertler
06.00 Eric Goedkoop
05.70 Doc
05.70 FOKKERJ Feuchtwanger
05.70 AROTH
05.60 ercoupepilot
05.45 GregE
05.30 Crimso
05.30 Der Grüne Flieger
05.20 Gilles
05.10 bshatzer
05.00 Tom L..........................have to wait 12 hours

04.70 dpolglaze........................ may start immediately
04.40 Ross Moorhouse
04.30 edmondthieffry
04.00 greenknight
03.70 Berman
02.50 Gregoire
02.10 Crankcase
02.00 austin08
02.00 Brad
02.00 Rickenbaron
02.00 sobrien
02.00 Rexee
01.70 Kilian
01.60 sergio_vitalio
01.50 Albatros_Ace
01.30 Cigogne
01.20 Ransom E. Olds
01.00 airplane176
01.00 Catfish
01.00 Cliff
01.00 cubsfan4life
01.00 gregorydquist
01.00 Luf-Rick
01.00 Mike Westorp
01.00 paolomiana
01.00 Peter Zambori
01.00 rammjaeger
01.00 Rufe
01.00 SL DIII
01.00 Tripehound
00.80 Machinbird
00.80 tbstreet
00.80 toxisch
00.60 Sreiko
00.50 ’14-‘18aviationcollector
00.50 Martin Irvine
00.40 Vilkata
00.30 albapfalzd30
00.30 Miroslav Pokorny
00.30 Nieuport14
00.20 Paul_J._Fisher

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Bréguet's Rules

1. The thread title must be "Bréguet's aircraft ID challenge #......"
2. The score board, link and rules must be copied to the beginning of each thread, so that we know where we are. The score board and the correct answer to the challenge must also be placed at end of each thread.
3. The completed aircraft must have been either; designed, built or have left the ground during the '14-'18 period and be identifiable by the poster.
4. The photo must show the whole aircraft - from whatever angle, or at least 2 views of a 3 view drawing (photo by preference).
5. Challenges which depict a machine already earlier presented are disqualified
6. (always check the list at earlyaviator.com/br.challenge when in doubt !)
7. If there is any doubt as to the eligibility of an aircraft for the challenge details should be PM'd to Breguet BEFORE the aircraft is submitted.
8. Once someone has got 5 correct answers under their belt they become an ACE. Once they become an ACE they must wait 12hrs after the posting of the new challenge before they can post an answer.
9. To be eligible for correct ID an answer must include at least one characteristic of the aircraft that helped in its identification.
10. The first person to ID the challenge correctly gets to post the next challenge. If this can not be done for any reason Breguet himself will post the next challenge.
11. If an ace gives the correct answer too early, the challenge is over, he gets no point but has to post the next one. In lieu of the fact that the "novices" have in effect been "cheated" of their "exclusive" time that next post should be a relatively easy one. Anyone repeating the correct answer at the right time gets neither a point nor the right to post the next challenge.
12. The final arbiter in relation to questions about the rules will be Breguet.

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Previous Aeroplanes 1914 - 1918* -* Breguet's Aircraft Challenge* --

Good luck in searching for this one and take care of Rule 9 and 11. There is one point for the contestant who gets in first (within the rules) and who gives the completely correct spelling and designation of this machine. Misspellings do earn zero points

Have a good time

Kees

[Breguet]

I had considered a rule banning flyingboats, float & seaplanes but I suppose I can hardly do that after making you a knight of the bally things !

[Rbailey]

Idrovolanti Bresciani Bre.1, from the large float under a Caproni -style trimotor.

Designed by Luigi Bresciani to make a seaplane version of the Caproni bomber, with sufficient modifications to warrant a new designation.

[Varese2002]

Originally Posted by Breguet

I had considered a rule banning flyingboats, float & seaplanes but I suppose I can hardly do that after making you a knight of the bally things !

As Shakespeare (almost) said - Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I was very pleased to find this obvious rarity. Please no rules for this are needed

Cheers

Kees

[Varese2002]

Originally Posted by Rbailey

Idrovolanti Bresciani Bre.1, from the large float under a Caproni -style trimotor.

Designed by Luigi Bresciani to make a seaplane version of the Caproni bomber, with sufficient modifications to warrant a new designation.

Signore Rbailey, you are right with the identification, but much of the text on this machine is not correct. Because the Internet has the power to spread ,this is the correct version of the history of the Idrovolanti Bresciani.

Going it over:

- Lieutenant Luigi Bresciani was an engineer with the Royal Italian Navy, who was ordered in 1915 to oversee the construction of 5 300 hp Caproni trimotors to be built by the SVAN shipyards in Venice, a single machine being intended as a seaplane. None of these machines materialized. Bresciani was asked to develop a seaplane according to the specifications of the Navy [Bresciano was not 'ordered to make a seaplane version of the Caproni']

- the designed and built Idrovolanti trimotore Bresciani was a completely different machine, resembling the Caproni in its twin tailboom layout only.

- the large float was really a boat like construction (with double hull), which had room for two pilots and a front gunner, extra was a rear gunner

- the central pusher engine was fitted on the lower wing (as there was no fuselage there, as with the Caproni), the pilots etc. were seating far lower

- as this machine was a completely different design the designation Idrovolanti trimotore Bresciani Bre was fully warranted

Actually three (!) machines were built, which were designated BRE.1, BRE.2 and BRE.3. The one in the Challenge picture is identified as the second machine (BRE.2) which was later completely modified by Guidoni with twin floats and a short fuselage between the twin tailbooms.

Unfortunately Bresciani was killed in a crash - together with others - in the third machine (BRE.3) on April 3, 1916. Development halted, but as already told Guidoni was later allotted to the then remaining machine (BRE.2).

As signore RBailey was right with the identification, the point will go to him.

Cheers

Kees

[Varese2002]

Solution

The Idrovalanti trimotore Bresciani Bre, the second built machine.

The score at thge end of Challenge #564

103.00 Varese2002 ☼
73.70 Dave_Kent ☼
60.60 Rbailey ☼
31.30 Cruze ☼
18.70 YavorD
18.15 Froggy
16.50 Aquilius
13.60 Flamingo
13.30 Rod Filan
11.90 richard B
09.50 matte_kudasai
08.40 JohnMacG
08.10 Breguet
07.70 Dan-San
07.70 EdStevens
07.60 trp81
07.40 Lodzermensch
07.30 Patrick
07.10 Colin A. Owers
06.70 Ampovandak
06.10 joegertler
06.00 Eric Goedkoop
05.70 Doc
05.70 FOKKERJ Feuchtwanger
05.70 AROTH
05.60 ercoupepilot
05.45 GregE
05.30 Crimso
05.30 Der Grüne Flieger
05.20 Gilles
05.10 bshatzer
05.00 Tom L..........................have to wait 12 hours

04.70 dpolglaze........................ may start immediately
04.40 Ross Moorhouse
04.30 edmondthieffry
04.00 greenknight
03.70 Berman
02.50 Gregoire
02.10 Crankcase
02.00 austin08
02.00 Brad
02.00 Rickenbaron
02.00 sobrien
02.00 Rexee
01.70 Kilian
01.60 sergio_vitalio
01.50 Albatros_Ace
01.30 Cigogne
01.20 Ransom E. Olds
01.00 airplane176
01.00 Catfish
01.00 Cliff
01.00 cubsfan4life
01.00 gregorydquist
01.00 Luf-Rick
01.00 Mike Westorp
01.00 paolomiana
01.00 Peter Zambori
01.00 rammjaeger
01.00 Rufe
01.00 SL DIII
01.00 Tripehound
00.80 Machinbird
00.80 tbstreet
00.80 toxisch
00.60 Sreiko
00.50 ’14-‘18aviationcollector
00.50 Martin Irvine
00.40 Vilkata
00.30 albapfalzd30
00.30 Miroslav Pokorny
00.30 Nieuport14
00.20 Paul_J._Fisher

Right to bring in Challenge #565

Rbailey

Cheers

Kees

[Rbailey]

Kees - Interesting correction to the material on the internet; I was only able to find the one reference to Bresciani's design, which always makes me uncomfortable even if I use it. I assume there are written sources which I don't have.

But it was good to have a challenge that lasted long enough for me to get - middle of the night times don't cut it for me.

Ron

[Varese2002]

Originally Posted by Rbailey

Kees - Interesting correction to the material on the internet; I was only able to find the one reference to Bresciani's design, which always makes me uncomfortable even if I use it. I assume there are written sources which I don't have.

But it was good to have a challenge that lasted long enough for me to get - middle of the night times don't cut it for me.

Ron

You are right, I am also past the age when I stay up till 01:15 for instance to shoot in the hopefully right answer. It makes it even more clear that one needs to be highly suspicious of information on the internet or more general always be cautious with accepting information without given evidence.

This information is from one of the stars of Italian aviation history - Gregory Alegi - heavily sourced with (archival) references. There is more verification in an Italian language article.

It makes me realize that their is not an exhaustive source (book - volume) on Italian world war one aviation AFAIK, which gives the state-of-the-art of knowledge at the moment. The available knowledge is scattered in a myriad of magazine articles and books.

Cheers

Kees

[Varese2002]

I had mitulated the picture of the Idrovolante Bresciani a bit, so I am obliged to fill in the original - in the original format. Just to please Breguet too, perhaps he will love those watery planes too.

As an extra there is a contemporary drawing showing that the machine was an original designed machine by Bresciani with little resemblence to the caproni bombers. Although the Caproni Ca.3 bombers were mighty machines on land, I don't think there performance as floatplanes was very succesfull.





Cheers

Kees