Luke "Shootout" question

In the book review, by Barrett Tillman of: Who Downed The Aces In WWI, he references information posted on the forum in 98 or 99 backing up the "story" of Frank Lukes final "shootout" after his plane was brought down. What was this info?

This data can be found in the recent threads by Tim King, Steve Skinner, myself and others. There is a frieendly debate as to whether or not Frank Luke had a 'shootout' with German soldiers onr the day he was shotdown. Read the threads and pick your version. 1/20/01 Billy H

Hi Kevin:
I have no knowledge of anything offered here in the last several years that your question would relate too.
Here are some basic issues. however, worth your contemplating as whether any "witnesses" actually "saw" anything and so "deposed".
The following text relates to the Luke technique for downing balloons: The material features Gen. "Billy" Mitchell and is from Col. Harold Hartney's book. It occured during a Luke sortie a few days before his death at Murvaux: "Col.Barnes (Mitchell offers) is going to do a little extra shooting tonight with his artillery and his gunflashes will probably make the balloon line more active. This was proved correct almost immediately. To the accompaniment of the roar of the good Colonel's guns, the balloons slowly but surely rose higher and higher, as their observers reported to German artillery on the location of Colonel Barnes' guns and their flashes.
General Mitchell shook his head. "Hartney, it's impossible! To get a balloon at all is a feat. To time its demise five hours ahead is beyond reason. And to do it at night is just not in the cards. ...at exactly 6:58 a tongue of flame shot into the sky over by Spincourt..." NOTE: Mitchell also asks HH how he gets the aircraft down on the ground "after dark" and Hartney describes the method. Succeeding passages describe the final sortie as planned to put Luke "over the balloon line after dark".
Sustained here, is a reiterated emphasis on the "nocturnal nature" of the event. You are probably aware that Billy H. was in Murvaux this past September and reported that as he departed- at Five P.M.- "It was dark." Recall that a pilot several hundred feet in the air is operating in much better relative visibility than is anyone on the ground below.
I hope you have availed yourself of the opportunity to acquire Billy H's book: It will give you the original affidavit and the affidavit secured by Royal Frey in '62. (BTW: Frey was in the company of a translator). It is fascinating to learn that the three remaining original "signers of 1919" recalled signing nothing!
One of them, moreover, would have been only four at the time! The darkness, the distance and the dubious origins of the original deposition lead me to conjecture that a team of U.S. Air Service Officers came out to gather information preparatory to writing a well-earned citation for "The Great Luke" - (as he was already known in his final weeks with the 27th)- they found a cozy bistro with a representative group of villagers- bought cognacs all around- and took appropriate notes for a "write-up" to be done after their return to H.Q. at Rembercourt. Probably there was a cute four year old there so they put his name down too. - (after all would anyone ever really care to check?).
Please further note that two investigators, P.J. Carisella and Frey, had information from German sources. For both of them to conclude there was "no gunplay" they most certainly must have had corroborative evidence from the contacts that they did correspond with in Germany.
Both Carisella and Frey surviving family members are known to me. BTW: Numerous "Frey documents" were never given to the Parks Foundation in Colorado. Letters might be found but they would do little more than corroborate the reports based on them by Frey and P.J. If you want book titles, names of the officers involved, (German and American),their units, the facts concerning the appraisal of the single wound as described by the Germans and the U.S. Graves Reg. medic, etc., please advise. (BTW it was hardly the mere "shoulder wound" argued by one of our contributors! and indeed was a mortal wound quite similar to that of MvR).
"Historiography" is the investigation of the factors that affect historical writing. Such activity supports the premise that "Eyewitness Testimony" is, has been- and always will be- as suspect as any other type of evidence.
Much that we have suggests that it was too dark and too far away (certainly many hundreds of yards away from Murvaux) for villagers to have observed the small gesture made by a individual who might have brandished a pistol after night has fallen. What are your thoughts? VBR. Lee

[stephen]

>>>For both of them to conclude there was "no gunplay" they most certainly must have had corroborative evidence from the contacts that they did correspond with in Germany.

Since you have contacts with the families, could you share with us what those documents are and what they said?

Greetings Lee:
1. I would like your offered references plus any documents: will pay costs.Address: Box 747, Poughquag, NY 12570. I mentioned that David Menard, the researcher at Wright-Patterson told me that he had only one thing relating to Luke, namely the 1970 article in the AAHS journal. It didn't seem realistic that Frey was a curator at W-P and that his papers weren't donated to their archives.
2. Would you like to collaborate with me on an article for OTF with title: "Documents relating to Frank Luke and his final flight"?
3. Murvaux and the other small towns are surrounded by high hills. The map on p134 ofRampage shows screened by Hills 350, 260, 292, 228, 285, 370, and 388, where the number designates the height in meters. Hill 388 is about 1261 feet high; the lowest, Hill 228 is about 741 feet high. My map came out of the 5th Division History. By 6 November Murvaux had been abandoned by the Gs. In fact, the narrative has German soldiers telling the doughboys to cut out the shooting as there was going to be an armistice. But these hills certainly cut off a lot of light. September is the beginning of the rainy season, which comes cold with morning and evening mists and thick fog. Frank Luke mentioned in his diary seeing a pilot in a sidecar with his eyes popped out from a crash in the fog that covered the field at Issoudon. Frank said that the pilot took off in clear weather, but 90 minutes later as he made his approach to land, the fog had drifted in so fast it covered the phone lines, and the pilot was forced to land in the soup. I have seen this phenomenon flying in Korea toward sunset in terrain similar to the Heights of the Meuse, when the fog, white as milk rolled into the valleys, at high speed.
4. Lee, I don't think there is anything such as "a mere shoulder wound" unless that contributor was confusing Hollywood shoulder wounds with the real thing. A pilot in flight could receive a chest wound from the left, from the right, or from the rear, and these wounds are seldom trivial but create a severe shock that is fatal if left untreated. Add to this the loss of blood, the reduction of blood pressure, and dehydhration from sweating and blood loss, and the outlook is not too bright. I wish that the Forum had a medical man who would analyze Luke's chest wound to put this debate to a close.
5. Luke was hit by ground fire from ground atop one of those thousand foot ridges. Luke flew under the crest, the wound trajectory being diagonal from the right chest, exiting below the left shoulder blade; leaving a 2 inch exit wound, as per the 1962 affidavit. I have that statement in French as taken by Frey's interpreter, and the English translation tracks the French perfectly.There is no mistranslation. In "The Red Baron's Last Flight" , Appendix H describes the effect of the slug through the RB's thorax. A pathologist who studied the autopsy reports: "Regardless of whether this injury caused immediate death or not, it would immediately cause severe functional impairment...especially co-ordination of the eyes with the hands.Also stated that there would have been immediate muscular constractions. Luke had a similar but much larger wound. He was not hit in the heart, or the spine but he would have lost cordination, and had spasms, which would account for his "bank slightly to the right then landing straight ahead."
6. I agree that eye witness accounts can be skewed by poor observation, military bias, censorship, and just plain lieing, but there are eyewitnesses who can report things as they are. I have in mind S.L.A. Marshall, who made a classic study of a small battle for a Pacific atoll, by putting the survivors together to jointly analyze each others actions. I forget the name of the work, but colonel Marshall perfected the methodology for the 'after-action report.
7. Thanks for recommending my book, Lee. Forumites can still get September Rampage from The Info Devel Press, 32 Reilly Road, Lagrangeville, New York 12540, on my offer of a 20% discount (postage on us) on this $35 book, or $28.00

Billy:
The communication with Col. Frey's widow, a delightful lady named Betty, is well established. I have put Tim King in touch with her. In speaking with P.J. Carisella's brother I find that P.J's files are with a reclusive daughter and her son. The brother says he is out of contact with both. He did tell me where they reside. They have a number reported as "unlisted by request". The grandson inherited the archives. Would you like to put your investigative skills to work on this? The family resides in fairly near proximity to you. I have no idea as to what kind of a reception you'll receive..
The condition would be that open disclosure of your findings would be shared with Tim for inclusion in his documentary. If you find this of interest please advise here and I will get an e-mail off to you with the info on their names and where they reside. VBR. Lee

Lee: Whatever I get will be shared, so fire away with addresses and names. What info did you get from Betty Frey? Are you going to send me something? Is Tim going to share his data? Billy H.24 Jan 01

Billy:

If the "e-mail" gods are kindly you should now have received the phone #s and addresses of P.J. Carisella's daughter and his brother.
As we personally agree, what Lt. Frank Luke did prior to the final sortie should have earned him the nation's highest honor. The "shootout" issue does, however, seem to influence many as being important to the tale "as it would be best told". Thus if PJ's files containing commentary from Engels and other German officers on that point can be retrieved we'll all be in your debt. Good going in all this! My Regards. Lee

LWB: Have your phone numbers, etc, but not the first name of PJ's brother. Topsfield, Danvers and Wakefield are about three hours ride from; along I-95 and above Boston. We should have a February thaw in about 10 days and I will try to get up there.