At the captain's request

[Vin]

Which aces never get enough respect ? asks Big Sparky. Thereafter appear “overlooked”, “under appreciated”, unappreciated”, “undervalued”, and “unsung”. The names that appear in the context of these adjectives are Udet, Löwenhard, Feiseler, Yeates, Lothar von Richthofen, May, Brown, Wehner and Libby. Incredibly two contributors include Luke in this context. On this forum, no pilot is less entitled to description using these adjectives. This pilot lasted around three weeks and is credited with 4 aircraft and 11 balloons (some shared) all achieved in the last two months of the war when the skies were overwhelmingly dominated by Entente forces. Yet on this forum no pilot, with the possible exception of von Rhichthofen, is lauded more. If it wasn't for that cock and bull yarn about the shootout to the death, Luke would be as little known and discussed on this forum as outside it. To use a sporting analogy, this pilot was knocked out in the semis but is treated on this forum as the gold medallist. Gentlemen, please. Temper your enthusiasm with a little common sense.

Dear Captain,

As requested.

None of art, the artist nor the value placed upon art is in dispute here. Perspective might be.

Dear Vin,
Since so much of what happens Down Under is the opposite of what happens here (Up Above?), let me begin your re-education by addressing your last argument:
"If it weren't for that cock and bull yarn..."
It might surprise you, Vincent, but here we have little contention: I, too, have serious doubts about what happened that Sunday evening in Murvaux. I'm presently transcribing Royal Frey's Murvaux Affadavit from 1962, and it raises as many questions, IMHO, as it gives answers. (But let others be the judge-- it should be available in the Aces section in a day or two).
I've been studying Luke for about two or three months now and, of course, I've come across your past postings; I believe you called "The Shootout" like something out of a bad western (and don't worry, Vin, for if you didn't call it that, then I'm calling it that right now).
You're right; yes, you're right...
But when you go on to say that "would be as little known and discussed on this forum as outside it", I'm afraid that you are dead wrong.
Dead wrong...
{I hope you all are appreciating the dramatic, repetive effect}
For one moment, let us all-- you, I, and everyone else-- let us all forget about Frank Luke's demise; let's say for the purposes of this thread, either "Luke's Last Stand" never happened, or that, as I believe, Luke's last flight is shrouded in doubt, inaccuracy, and speculation...
{Please note my 'superior' use of language; thank you.}
Lt. Frank Luke's reputation would still be a major one.
WHY? Because he damn near single-handedly took down the whole German balloon line in the American sector!
It would not have happened had Luke not been there; and I hope that by stating this, I'm not in anyway denigrating Wehner's support and contribution.
But before Luke, the USAS shied away from balloon busting, and, for that matter, attacks were usually conducted during daylight.
Luke, by whatever means, figured out that the best time to eat sausage was at twilight; on the other hand, the 94th P.S. (Rickenbacker's) did develope a hankering for ham for breakfast. On the first day of the Meuse-Argonne, they were wildly successful, so they probably thought that morning was the best time for such attacks. Still, Luke showed the way: if nothing else, he turned the tactics around by conducting balloon strafes with just one or two aircraft...
Ahem...
Except for one particular instance, when he not only knew better, he probably conducted a balloon strafe against his better judgement: this is on the afternoon of the first day of the above-mentioned offensive, when he lost his wingman, Ivan Roberts. The point being, Luke went back to the old tactic of attacking during daylight; I suppose that he was ordered to do so by his CO, Captain Grant, which was probably the proverbial last straw as far as Luke was concerned...
Your turn, Vin...

[Barker]

Skipping the Shootout, but taking the gauntlet:

I am never sure why this conversation advances anything and to any pupose.
The Captain's points are all well-taken.
So are Vin's insofar as other pilots racked up higher scores.


So?

Frank Luke's accomplishment stands on merits of its own.
Beyond that, it seems .... conspicuous?... to rant further.
Particularly against.


We need yet another rule, perhaps.

Dear Vin,
The hits just keep on coming!

"This pilot lasted around three weeks and is credited with 4 aircraft and 11 balloons (some shared) all achieved in the last two months of the war when the skies were overwhelmingly dominated by Entente forces."

In point of fact, Luke "lasted" about three months; his noted "September Rampage" went from 12 September to 29 September, 18 days, of which there was a one-week leave, as well as some non-flying days due to inclement weather. As far as the last two months of the war, Luke was active for barely the first three...
Luke's official tally-- and I'm not going to argue whether it should be larger or smaller or shared-- was 14 balloons and 4 aircraft.
Let's see now... 18 goes into 18 one time... so Luke did better than one kill a day. Not bad, wouldn't you say?

Yes, I would agree with you, Vin, the skies were owned by the Entente, but not everywhere-- are we forgetting the concept behind the Flying Circus, so as to obtain local superiority? By no means did the Yanks have an easy time of it in those last two months-- this is why we call it "Black September" (and the account of this period in Russell-Franks-Bailey's Bloody April... Black September was written by a digger, fer chrissakes!).

So, Vin, ready to throw in the towel yet?

[Barrett]

Thanks, Cap'n. I needed that. B)
(Definitely not under-rated a'tall!)

[Barker]

Originally posted by duckman@Mar 23 2004, 07:53 PM
[b] Great - sure. Overrated - definitely.

Split hairs.

great?
yes.
each.
I notice, however, that the South African's counts don't quite measure.

How many pilots does one want to measure and by what razor?

Udet: could've died at the hands of many a pilot, Guynemer notwithstanding, finally best noted in the "Fraught With Peril Parchute Out" from, what, a Breuget pilot???


What does all this come to?

Nation-bashing?


Was the man a pilot?


NUFF SAID.


That's what I think - the rest is fate.

[Ginger.]

Top and bottom is that with the Yanks always coming so late to world wars they don't get much time to grow any Heroes. So have to catch them where they can.

[Vin]

Strike me, Captain, a man gets in from a hard day saving unfortunates from the gallows to be greeted with this.

“Because he damn near single-handedly took down the whole German balloon line in the American sector!”

You'll have to come with something to back that up. Coming from most others I would call that hyperbole. But for you, Captain, I'll respectfully reserve judgment as your posts set you well apart from the usual legend lovers.

Was he a very good scout pilot ? Probably although you could equally conclude that a high level of aggression shooting at big stationary objects could yield a good haul in the short term before the inevitable.

Just a thought. If a pilot destroys a balloon at twilight, when it had finished its days work anyway and was possibly already on the ground, then as long as the Germans could replace it overnight, the destruction of the balloon hasn't interrupted the war effort at all. Good for score accumulation, though.

I suppose you can put any spin on a set of facts. You can choose to see Luke as the noble warrior of extraordinary ability dedicated to saving infantry lives by denying the German artillery its eyes. Equally you can see a glory seeking hothead trying to rack up a score as quickly as possible, tackling targets that are big, stationary and don't shoot back.



Respectfully (and I mean it)
Fair Dinkum, your arse, Skippy, wrong way round, re educated etc
Vin

[Barker]

Originally posted by Vin@Mar 24 2004, 05:19 AM
[b] I suppose you can put any spin on a set of facts.

Sure can.

You just did.

[Barker]

Originally posted by duckman@Mar 23 2004, 11:24 PM
[b] "Overrated" - wrong word.

Suffice to say I agree with Vin that the terms “overlooked”, “under appreciated”, unappreciated”, “undervalued”, and “unsung” cannot be used about FJL. I believe they can be about AWBP, and a great many others.

Point taken.

It's a good one, of course.

Here's what I never understand:
Inevitable comparisons that seek to lower one to raise the other.

At some point, score and accomplishment speak of "pilot" better than the rest of us can in their wake.

The quibbling is truly over-rated.