No Parachute- fact or fiction?

[wings]

Is the book, No Parachute, completely true, or is there some fiction in it? For example, the combats with a red triplane in early Sept.1917. True or not?

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Wings:
* * *In September 1917, there were only two Fokker F.I aircraft at the front in September 1917, F.I 102/17 MvR *to 6 September 1917 when he went on leave and it was taken over by Oblt. Kurt Wolff and he was KIA while fying it on 17 September 1917. The was nothing done to the finish of this Fok.F.I 102/17, it was still camouflaged it the Fokker streaked finish. *See photo 25, page 22, in Alex Imries's "THE FOKKER TRIPLANE". * The other triplane was Ltn.Werner Voss' Fok. F.I 103/17. *It was never painted red!
* * *At the end of September 1917, there were 12 Fok.DR.I that had been accepted for delivery, but they were not delivered until the middle of October 1917. *The bi-monthly inventory lists show that 17 Fok.DR.I machines had been delivered to the front. Twelve of these went to Jasta 11, and one went to Jasta 15 and the four to other Jasta.
* * Therefore, there were no red Fokker Triplanes at the front in September 1917! So in answer to your question, It seems that Arthur Gould Lee has an over-active imagination! In plain words, he is full of crap!.
* * * * * * * Blue skies,
* * * * * * * * *Dan-San

[Lufbery]

Dan-san, you said,

So in answer to your question, It seems that Arthur Gould Lee has an over-active imagination! In plain words, he is full of crap!.

Is that a general observation regarding his book as a whole, or are you just talking about this one example?

Thanks,

-Drew

[Cigogne]

I respect Dan-Sans answer but am still unsettled in the matter.

I've seen the photo that appears in the book and is touted as being the crashed F.I 102/17. Has anyone examined the real photo up close or only the Imrie book to verify it's identity or serial if discernible? A small screened photo can leave a lot to be desired as far as details go. What was the source of the Imrie photo? Could it possibly have been another of the early tripes? All of the media rigamarole and most photos were taken when the triplanes first arrived in late August 1917. They are recorded on cine film that Anthony Fokker took. The Gould Lee entries are for early September, possibly the 2-5th. (I don't have it with me at work to verify the exact date). A lot can happen in a few days.

Does anyone know for certain that the No Parachute book is false in that regard? Has anyone seen the letters or other material that formed the manuscript? I think therein lies the real test. He quotes others who also state the same as he himself. In a court of law the testimony of two or more witnesses can establish the truth.

"No Parachute" is supposed to be letters written on the day and unedited. Not written later. I suppose it might be good to locate the letters themselves and investigate them to see if it is actually in the letters and diary entries. That might settle the matter or tip the scale one way or the other. They were donated to either the IWM or RAF Museum I'm told.

This has always bothered me like a bad tooth.

Sources close to Mr. Gould Lee who knew him, have said he was of impeccable character and wouldn't have added that in for flavor later.

Another mystery to solve.

[Cigogne]

Wings,

I'd say that for the most part "No Parachute" is a reliable account. Until the diaries/letters can be examined we can't say for 100% if that small part is falsified or not. However, I've read the book countless times and it, more than many, brings the subject alive as to what it was like to be an average Sopwith Pup pilot in the RFC in 1917. Defininitely not the 1930s blood and thunder stuff in the pulps! I prefer it to "Fighting the Flying Circus" which was clearly ghost written and contains more innaccuracies than "No Parachute."

Rickenbacker wasn't that well educated to take on a book writing project on his own. He was "pull himself up by the bootstraps" type of fellow, a self made man who made it big in auto racing prior to the war.

[Lufbery]

Cigogne (that's stork, right?),

I, too, really like No Parachute. Just a quick note. I believe that the foreword states that A.S.G. Lee edited the letters slightly to remove references of a more personal nature. Still, the airplane-related stuff is presented as being un-, or only lightly-edited.

-Drew

[stephen]

Dan and I had this conversation many years ago and we still see it differently. I was not there and do not know how many Tripes had been delivered and what color they were. I can, however, vouch for the veracity of much of what Lee says in other areas.

I've been to Cambrai many times and looked up the exact spots where Lee was shot down on November 22, 26 and 30, 1917. I found La Folie wood, the canal behind it, and walked the field where he was shot down. I found the sunken road to which he fled under heavy machine gun fire from Germans south of Fontaine. I even found the remains of the trench position northeast of Cantaing where on Nov 22nd Lee spent some time with the 9th Royal Scots, downing some whiskey while talking over his close call.

In every case I found Lee's memory to be remarkably accurate. His distance estimates, plotted by memory and guesswork alone under combat conditions, are incredibly good. He could not have made up such detailed accounts, because this level of detail cannot be ascertained from the air... and he's not lying because I've seen everything he spoke of on the ground.

If Lee were going to make up a fantastic story to help sell his book, his account of being shot down (3 times) would surely have been fictionalized. But its not.

It makes no sense that Lee would fictionalize his run-in with a red Triplane, a relatively brief account which he readily admitted may not have been Richthofen at all. And if he did make up the story, one is hard pressed to explain his accuracy and detail in so many other areas of an otherwise reliable document.

Might be an idea to dig out the kiddie's paint set. "REAL" red is a brown shade. What we call red is scarlet, or crimson in real life. This sixpence worth does not fit in with the olive streaking though.Am I getting pedantic?

[wings]

If someone had the 46 Sq. combat reports, squadron record book, etc. for early Sept.1917, they might be able to solve this mystery.

[alex_revell]

I think it's dispicable to refer to as fine a chap as Gould Lee as 'full of crap'. What kind of comment and language is that to use on a site which proports to be one of serious discussion. If memory serves me correctly,Gould Lee was Pres of Cross and Cockade when the book came out, or at least a member. He would have known that any alterations he made to his wartime notes would have been seen as false by the members, even supposing that he was capable of doing such a thing. I can assure you that he was not.
I don't think that it's wise to be dogmatic about how many Fokker Triplanes were at the Front in August/Sept 1917. There are many combat reports which mention more than two Triplanes in the air, before and after Wolff and Voss were shot down.
Alex Revell