Can anyone help identify this photo?

Volker_Nemsch · 16 October 2015, 03:34 AM

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The list of German female aviators before and during WW1 is extremely short. I only found three "flying ladies".

- Melli Beese (No.115 dd. 13.09.1911)*
- Charlotte Möhring (No.285 dd. 07.09.1912)**
- Else Haugk (No.785 dd. 06.06.1914)***

*
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amelie_Beese

**
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlotte_M%C3%B6hring

***
http://centennialofwomenpilots.com/e...k-switzerland/

Käthe Paulus (famous for her work in connection with parachutes) started with flying lessons but did not finish the course.
I do not know if Else Haugk returned to Switzerland before/during WW1.
Melli Beese certainly was not allowed to fly during WW1.
So only Charlotte Möhring is left and it seems that she was a flying instructor during (!) the war.

That's all I found...

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dernancourt · 17 October 2015, 06:54 AM

Some very interesting comments........

Regards, Alan.

Volker_Nemsch · 17 October 2015, 08:01 AM

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Hello Alan,

It sounds a bit as if if you are having some "special knowledge" in this connection or at least am assumption leading into such a direction. Could you share it with us? It would be helpful for all of us...

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dernancourt · 17 October 2015, 05:12 PM

Hello Volker_Nemsch..... My previous posts declared that I know Pete, and I think this photo is un-usual and interesting.... And I have been making regular comments to keep the thread up front page..... "BUT" I think it could be just as logical for someone to prove it does not have family members in it, as for someone to prove they are in picture..... If you Google (von richthofen family images), and go into the site, and click on the 2nd photo, (from top left hand side), I find the image of "Ilse" is very much like the lass in photo, (especially the facial features, and hair-style), and the man standing looks a little like Freiherr von Richthofen, (but the water mark makes ID difficult).. And a tiny, tiny chance the lady with gloves and coat could be Kunigunde...... I guess if there is somebody out there, who knows more than you and I about this, hopefully they will see this thread and put us out of misery.... To explain my interest, I have a signature here of "Ilse" in an old poetry book, which came from the hometown of the family, a long time ago.......... I contacted the seller of the photo, before it was sold, to see if this was infact "Ilse?|". But he did not know who was in the picture..........To explain my comment about "very interesting comments" I actually meant that they are interesting to some-one like myself, who has little knowledge of WW1 aircraft... For eg: The fact that there were no red tri-planes, in the circus, and the statistics you presented about the women pilots was very interesting for me........... Hope this helps..... Kind Regards, Alan.

dernancourt · 18 October 2015, 06:20 PM

Correction..... My apologies....... Near the end of my previous post, it should read bi-plane (not tri-plane)...
Regards, Alan.

dernancourt · 21 October 2015, 09:07 PM

Are there any more comments on the likeness of the two photos of Ilse, as referred to in previous posts on this thread?.... Your comments would be interesting....

Regards, Alan...

CjBobrow · 22 October 2015, 06:05 AM

As for MvR 1914? Not too likely...

Jim · 23 October 2015, 05:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dernancourt

. . . "BUT" I think it could be just as logical for someone to prove it does not have family members in it, as for someone to prove they are in picture.....

. . . hopefully they will see this thread and put us out of misery....

Hi Alan.

Your mention about logic and attempting to put the burden on experts to prove a negative where there is no evidence is not the way logic works. When there is an unlikely hypothesis, logic always puts the burden of proof on the person who posits the unlikely hypothesis, not the other way around. One needs an heuristic approach such as using Occam's Razor which simply put says that one needs to set aside one's hopes or preconceptions and start with the simplest explanation and disprove that before resorting to convoluted explanations. There is not only no evidence these are the von Richthofens, but going by the aircraft itself the evidence points to it not being the von Richthofens along with the fact that there are virtually countless war time aviation photos with only a tiny handful being members of the von Richthofen family making the odds of this being what you would like it to be in the face of there being no recognizable faces statistically zero.

I think everyone here would love to see a newly discovered and unpublished photo of Ilse and her family but absent recognizable faces or rock solid provenance one needs to pass on this as being what we all would wish for.

I think it is time to let this thread drift into the archives.

Volker_Nemsch · 23 October 2015, 09:35 AM

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OK, one last attempt: please provide us with some photos of members of the Richthofen family you have and we will try to compare them with our own sources. We tried such things several times before and it worked quite well. Have a look here:

http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/sh...ight=Anslinger

http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/sh...highlight=Hess

Now it’s time for you to show us your "photographic evidence"…

______

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frontflieger · 24 October 2015, 03:21 AM

Hi all,

I would like to add some thought:

1.) The plane has no machine-gun at the place one lady is sitting
2.) The plane is stuck in high gras (it is not propperly 'parked')
3.) I do not see a single soldier (uniform wearing man) on the picture
4.) Who would stand like this on the top plane - I guess no soldier

... This could be a post-war image of a POW-plane (I mean a captured plane) anywhere in the world.