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28 January 2003, 01:23 PM
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#21 |
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I can't speak English let alone Flemmish or even German!
Golly, Rob - you on yo' own, my friend! 8)
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"A King may move a man, a father may claim a son, but remember that even when those who move you be Kings, or men of power, your soul is in your keeping alone. When you stand before God, you cannot say, "But I was told by others to do thus." Or that, "Virtue was not convenient at the time." This will not suffice.." -Baldwin Four of The Baldwin Piano Company |
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28 January 2003, 03:04 PM
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#22 |
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Barker,
It wasn't just a one off, Göring's a/c. There were others. Jasta 26 had some as did other units. The neatness of the stenciling, etc. are giveaways to this. The D.VII that Göring took to Sweden was also one of these. Cigogne
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28 January 2003, 03:23 PM
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#23 |
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... Fat Hermann the Train Collector:
No where in WWI photographs or cinefilm have I seen any evidence of this "Fat Hermann" fellow that was so vain. The subordinates who served under him in Jasta 27, like Helmuth Dilthey, and others prospered under Göring's leadership and praised him. (Rosenstein, a Jewish pilot/ace, had run ins with Göring in late 1917 at Jasta 27, and was transferred. No praise from him!) But, Göring was deemed good enough to lead 2 prominent units in combat, one was later a component of JG III, and the second the premier JG I itself. That in and of itself is an indictment that he was a good, courageous fellow then. What happened later postwar was a case of absolute power corrupting absolutely! And, or course, the Treaty of Versaille and League of Nations provided the setting for what happened. About Fokker. Fokker was known to show appreciation for business and endorsements. Göring, Lörzer and others were wined and dined by him, it is true, but Fokker didn't lose out on this at all. He was an insider and had their trust... he had to earn it! This also is backed up by cinefilm that Fokker took at various locations, both in Berlin, and in the field. So, it wasn't strange that Fokker had aircraft painted up from time to time for some of the fellows who helped him turn the tables against Germany's biggest airplane manufacturer, namely Albatros. And also have both subsidiaries of Albatros produce his design! What a coup! That is worth at least a paint job or two! Let's leave the Fat, Train collector cartoon to another war, eh? That "character" has no place in this war! Cigogne
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Cigogne |
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28 January 2003, 05:58 PM
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#24 |
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apologies, sir.
wrote that and thought, bet there's someone who will tell me how and why these comments are unfair.
__________________
"A King may move a man, a father may claim a son, but remember that even when those who move you be Kings, or men of power, your soul is in your keeping alone. When you stand before God, you cannot say, "But I was told by others to do thus." Or that, "Virtue was not convenient at the time." This will not suffice.." -Baldwin Four of The Baldwin Piano Company |
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28 January 2003, 06:05 PM
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#25 |
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Cigogne, Find ur remarks re "Der Dicke" enlightening, but surely, on cannot TOTALLY separate Hermann der Oberleutnant from Hermann der Reichsmarschall. The seeds of what he was to become, must have already existed, despite defeat, Versailles, or morphine addiction. How else does one explain his berating of his "Young Eagles" on the Channel Coast in 1940, when he himself had led men from the cockpit? Warmest regards, Rob (and perhaps have I inadvertently turned the thread to the "People" area of the Forum?)
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29 January 2003, 01:34 AM
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#26 |
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Separating the man from the cartoon...
Yes we can and stop calling him Shirley. Rob, Göring's all white a/c was somewhat modified. Ease of entry hatch, mg cartridge deflectors and a handle. .. Some people hate the thing, all white, others think it a pretty bird. I kind of like the thing and consider it nifty as well as gutsy, the opposite of Optische Tauschung. No more "where's the Sq Leader" with that a/c... o well. harumpf. 
__________________
"A King may move a man, a father may claim a son, but remember that even when those who move you be Kings, or men of power, your soul is in your keeping alone. When you stand before God, you cannot say, "But I was told by others to do thus." Or that, "Virtue was not convenient at the time." This will not suffice.." -Baldwin Four of The Baldwin Piano Company |
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29 January 2003, 08:58 AM
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#27 |
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Barker,
I hope you'll forgive me for sounding harsh... didn't mean it to sound like that. No apology necessary to me. Some of those type of comments I'd seen from others and it had been bugging me like a bad tooth. I'm not a Göring worshipper or anything like that, but have involved helping others do work that contained info on him. I have also seen a fair amount of WWI footage of him. Footage is always so much more interesting to look at than still photos because you can see glimpses of character, humor, etc. that give more insight into someone. I have need to thank you for your comment because it made me do some thinking and figure out why I felt the way I did. Finally, I said something. Thanks for making the comment! Rob Owens, Göring is unfortunately marred by later incidents and it influences our thinking about his earlier efforts. I guess we want to look for patterns to figure him out. I think you can separate a man from different periods of his life. Take for example, in ancient times Kings Saul, David, and Solomon were all great men... each unparalled in many respects until unfortunate wrong choices led to their downfalls. A succession of wrong choices, or rather consequences of wrong choices, can cause irreversible events. Fueled by ego, or pride... or other things like addiction. That is an oversimplification of human nature, I guess. But, to me, all of Göring's problems had to do with these things and uncontrolled appetites. These grew as he indulged them and had the power to do as he pleased. During the WWI years he didn't have that awesome (I don't mean that in the teenage kid way!) power of postwar times that led him to believe that he could have anything he wanted. My feeling is that the end of the war and its bad consequences for Germany developed in him the desire to do something about it. He had some influence and exposure to the spotlight from his leadership role in the war. That gave him some leverage and influence in the political postwar arena. As his stature and influence grew, his appetites grew with them and he did nothing to check them. Cigogne
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29 January 2003, 09:02 AM
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#28 |
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Rob Owens,
As to the berating his pilots in 1940. My guess there is that he was like an "old dog that couldn't learn new tricks!" Tactics had changed and he didn't grasp the realities of that. Cheers, Cigogne
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29 January 2003, 09:13 AM
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#29 |
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"A squadron of Spitfires." said Herr Galland.
No matter what universe you're from, that's gotta hurt* *Star Wars, I, Pod-race announcer Monsieur Stork: Cheers 8) You bet. Have you read Toland's book about Herman? An excellent *huge* thing that delves into all these very points with a fair degree of impartiality. good stuff. I almost did up a DeeSeven in Herman's beachmobile but decided to lay off. Tho't instead of Willi Gabriel and his spat with the BigMan. Someone tell me: Was Willi a scoundrel or a head-strong kid? The photos show a fairly self-impressed lad... what's the dope?
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"A King may move a man, a father may claim a son, but remember that even when those who move you be Kings, or men of power, your soul is in your keeping alone. When you stand before God, you cannot say, "But I was told by others to do thus." Or that, "Virtue was not convenient at the time." This will not suffice.." -Baldwin Four of The Baldwin Piano Company |
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29 January 2003, 09:30 AM
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#30 | |
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Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Harrisburg, PA
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Quote:
Would you like to see them? Regards,
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