Validity of Bishop's claims

Jasta 20 was unassigned because it was on the home front during June 2. They did loose 3 pilots to training accidents. I have been reading a book

Billy Bishop: Canadian Hero
by Dan McCaffery
his book seems to conclude that Jasta 5 is the only option which was commanded by W Voss. He also suggests that a lieutenant Townsend 12 Squadron Raf as confirmation of the drome attack.
This I think is a real grasp at straws... in that Townsend suppossedly talked to farmers bordering the drome and claims that they told him about the early morning raid. Townsend suppossedly had these conversations with these mystery farmers after the allies occupied this drome towards the end of the war. He never sites any of these farmers by name!!!!!!

Oh by being a Canadian myself I can tell you that the Canadian Senate is a real farce. (No better and maybe worse than the British House of Lords)!!
If any of you Yanks want to know why there was an American revolution then all you have to do is look to the Canadian Senate a real Colonial leftover. Nothing more than a retirement home for political hacks all appointed(Never elected) for life with legislative powers. Canada is a democracy or is it a real hypocracy!!!!! A Canadian Senate committee report has the equivalent value as toilet paper. I think a majority (95%)of Canadians would tell anyone the same thing!

[leo]

Hey John! Would you believe it? We have warts, too. So does every other country. Man and his institutions are quite often flawed vessels. The test is can they carry water. In Canada, it would appear they do. Best wishes from south of the border.

leo

[Billy_Bishop]

I don't see how Jasta 20 can be on the Home front when it had started moving from it's base of operations at Guise near St. Quentin to Montkerke near Bruges, Belgium on or about May 27. Even GOGS book, The Jasta Pilots has it listed as being at Guise from 1 March, 1917 to 27 May, 1917, and then at Montkerke from 27 May, 1917 to 31 August, 1917. Guise is in the 2nd Armee operational area and Montkerke is in the 4th Armee operational area.

As to W. Voss and Jasta 5, well, he wasn't in command of anything, that I am aware of at the time of Bishop's attack on June 2, 1917, which is a direct contradiction to what many have thought for many years. In fact, Leutnant Kurt Schneider was in command of Jasta 5 on June 2, 1917. The only unit that Voss officially commanded was Jasta 10 from 30 July, 1917 until he was Killed on 23 September, 1917.

As far as McCaffrey's book goes, his reporting of Townsend as a "witness" to the raid is highly questionable, considering that Townsend is said to have told Phil Markham that he (Townsend) didn't consider the information reliable himself, as it was 3rd hand info. Markham reported this himself in his article for Over The Front's magazine.

With regard to the Canadian Senate, regardless of whether it carries much validity it's self is not the issue. The Senate sub-committee did hold hearings, people did testify on "The Kid Who Couldn't miss" and all of that testimony IS a matter of public record. With regard to that, it is not the Senate's validity that comes into question, but rather that of the witnesses who testified at the sub-committee hearings.

With regard to the Senate it's self. I truly think the Canadians should take a page from our book, and change it so that the Senators are elected as ours are. BUT, I have to warn you. You might find that the elected senators are no better, and some may be even worse than those who were appointed.

Be careful of what you wish for, you just might get it!!!

VBR,

Al Lowe

[wings]

Just got back from a little vacation. Although Stewart Taylor has done some great work, I am puzzled by his comments on Jasta 20. If their War Diary was destroyed during WWII, where do all of these details come from? He said that he could name the German pilots shot down during Bishop's "raid". What are the names, and what is the source?

[Billy_Bishop]

As to what his source is/was, I don't know. What he said at the Senate hearings, is what he said. I would imagine his source, if related to Jasta 20 is likely a copy of the Jasta 20 KTB, same as Ferko's source is a copy of the KTB, but as to who made Taylor's copy, I have no clue. Of course we all know who made the copy in the Ferko collection, Turnuss, or Tornaus, I've seen several different spellings, and I'm not really sure which is correct, though I suspect that "Turnuss" is the likely winner.

Until later,

Al Lowe

[Billy_Bishop]

While I appreciate very much the work that Frank Olynk put into creating the two documents that look at Bishop's 72 confirmed claims, and German losses covering the same period. I have come to realize that the problem with the two is for it to work, we need to know WHERE the German aircrew went down.

Unfortunately, all the Losses document tells us is where the pilot/aircrew died, and if they were in a hospital or not. Based on that, it doesn't really give us the info we need to Truly examine the German losses and compare them to Bishop's claims to see if any of them could possibly be one of his claims.

Perhaps this info will be made available by some other means and then we can really examine his claims in greater detail.

VBR,

Al Lowe

[Soderbaum]

Hi Al

Its better if you concentrate the research on the Grufl reports of the German Army Group for the specific dates around Bishops claims.
These reports could even be better than original KTB reports(or extracts from KTBs) because the Grufl had a direct responsibility for reporting succeses and losses(all air activities).

Probably you can find nearly 100% of the German losses there...!

I dont have copies of these reports but they certainly exist "out there somewhere" in private collections and partly also down there(in German Archives).
If you have money or high ambition you can probably find them...

But..but..I am not convinced that you will be satisfied with the result of such investigations..??..a challenge..!!

Regarding claims you must also always consider the possibility for counter claims by other allied pilots or A-A

So the Zickerick list in Eberhardts book is only a start for further investigation.
I dont have the new Grub Street book yet about German losses in WW1 so I dont knew if they worked with the Grufl reports as base..?
Also the Kofl reports gives victories/losses but for the whole Army.

Good Luck
Certainly someone MUST do this job...!..perhaps someone already has done it..?

VBR
Gunnar

[wings]

Several people, including the Grub Street writers, have the Kofl reports for Bishop's area, but only 1-2 of the casualties might match up. I don't know about the Grufl reports.