Attention Ron F

In the Fonck 125 victory thread you took me to task for my opinion that IGAF pilots were Generally more successful and survived longer because they were Generally more mature, better trained, previously served as infantry, observers, or two-seat pilots and also enjoyed a better concept of tactics and thelogistical advantage of fighting over their own lines Vs
(Generally) the average RFC pilot of early 1917
that had eight hour solo time at Turnberry.

While my comment was generic, you seem to want to focus on "Bloody April"

Here are your #'s
The Great War in the Air
Smithsonian History of Aviation Seies
Prof John Morrow
p. 234

At the Battle of Arras, which lasted from 9 April to 17 May, the RFC arrayed 365 aircraft, one-third fighters against 195 German aircraft, one-half fighters. In April this smaller German aerial contingent equipped with superior fighter aircraft took a heavt toll of insufficiently trained British aircrews in obsolete aircraft.

Two Nieuport squadrons , numbers 29 and 60, stationed at Izel de Hamaeu opposite MvR's Jasta 11 at Douai, lost more than 100% of their flying strength in April with a total of 27 killed, MIA, POW, and 4 injured in crashes.The British fought on , sustained by erroneous belief that their toll of German' who kept rigorous accounting of their own casualties and victories, accounted for 176 British planes in the Sixth Army area at Arras between 31 March and # May for losses of 21 killed, 15 wounded, and 4 missing. In the four week period ending 27 April, the RFC lost 238 killed, and 105 wounded AND THE PILOT'S AVERAGE FLYING HOURS BEFORE FALLING CASUALTY DIMINISHED FROM 295 HOURS IN AUGUST 1916 TO 92 IN APRIL 1917.

Lets forget two seaters right now. Lets look at Jasta 11 versus RFC 29 &60. Jasta 11 lost one pilot in April (Fetner on the 25th and it's quite possible he was shot down by his own Ack).

I'll throw the ball to you. Grant me that the Nieuport versus the Albatross DIII (that could barely keep its wings on) is a push.

Were the German pilots more successful because they were in MOST INSTANCES more mature, career military, better trained, tactically superior OR just better.

P.S. - Jasta 11 was responsible for 11 of the RFC 60 losses in April 1917. This squadron included the great Bill Bishop. He must have been out by himself looking for Jasta 20 heading north while his comrages were falling like golfballs at a driving range.

VBR,


Holck

Another P.S. to all; Yes, I am a regular forumite who is too much of a sniveling coward to give my real name and email address.

Hi Al Lowe,

Enjoyed that last post. Are you still unemployed?
Joey still hungry? Stiil stalking preschoolers?

VBR,

The Real Holck

[Craig]

Shame on you, whomever you are. for either:

a) Venomous, infantile slander, or

B) Posing as someone else in order to discredit a viewpoint which you have failed markedly to counter using logic.

Correct Craig.

To Manfred's pilot the Count: while I sometimes appreciate your intelligent posts, your method of hostility demonstrates cowardice. Please give up these antics and try some humor - others here will appreciate it.

Mark (no e-mail by design - dont want it)

[Craig]

Consider that it's answer B. One can assume any name here - or any ONE'S name - so maybe it wasn't really him.

[rammjaeger]

I guess here is a real coward trying to discredit Count Holck. Shame on you bastard!

[rammjaeger]

Ron,

I remember you did not want to have the comparison limited to any short period of war like Bloody April. O.K. read some stuff about the British training (e.g. here on the Forum is a nice report) and compare to documentations of the GAS, e.g. Georg Paul Neumann: "Die deutschen Luftstreitkräfte im Weltkriege". The difference in the training process is obvious! Only own reductions in the German training starting in spring 1917 and the introduction of GOSPORT in fall 1917 made the gap shrinking late in the war.

NOTE: On a little pilot school near Berlin an average number of 200 flights per trainee was counted!!

I admit some single-handed flights of flying teachers are included but based on the requests for the three pilot examinations in Germany you can take 150 flights in account.

I called it right in the Fonck thread, Holck is an ass.

[Ron_F]

count,
You mistook my post with another analogy of Bloody April.

either :
1. you use it to focus that was the training difference throughout the war, or
2. you were only talking about Bloody April.

My response was simply for #1, not #2.
I do not have a problem with the generalization of #2 about the deficiencys of RFC training during Bloody April.

But i understood your post in the Fonck thread as generalizing for the entire war, or at least comparision from 1914 to 1917 with what you wrote at the beginning of this thread. Which is not accurate for the entire war.

Now, do we see it clearly now? Were you making a statement for #1 or #2 above?

Hannes, you post is noted sir!

Ron F.