A non-Bréguet challenge - which plane is that ?

[Catfish]

Hello,

i am almost sure what it is, however i have not a good picture of it from the left, as it is shown beneath :

What i really need is the time of the photograph, if possible - or at least that it was not possible to make this photo before a certain time, e.g. pre 19xx.

Here it is:



I think it might be a plane from the Breguet challenge 419, but not with "Stahlherz" rotary, but an inline engine. Maybe Kees, Aquilius or Richardb know something about it - or maybe i am wrong in identifying this ? I wonder what the descending tube is, at the rear of the engine. I have only photos from a "Union" from the right side

Any help regarding the time of the photograph, or further info on the plane, would be welcome.

Thanks and greetings,
Catfish

[Catfish]

Hello again,
it is a "Union Pfeil Doppeldecker", constructed by Sablatnig and/or Hoehndorf, and/or Bomhard. This descending tube is not a tube, but one of the two struts running from the edge of the upper wing to the fuselage - the upper portion is not visible due to the light of the window in the background. The rising lower wing, the arrowed upper one and the tank on the upper wing is also a good identification.
So i think this photo cannot have been taken before 1913, because there was no "Union Pfeil" inline engine type before this time - and the hangar did not exist up to october 26th, 1913.

This plane is being shown in the airship hangar of Dresden, together with airship LZ 17 named "Sachsen" ("Saxony"), and we are trying to find out when the picture was taken, to determine when the airship was rebuilt, receiving an additional section for generating more lift.

Sablatnig and a pilot named Hanitz flew the "Union Pfeil" in september and october 1913, in Johannisthal, Berlin, setting some new altitude and weight records (with 5 persons!) , and we also found out that this Hanitz also flew a "Union Pfeil" (maybe not the same as in Johannisthal ?) in october in Dresden, performing loopings and spins, together with 6 other planes including Albatros biplanes, and a Taube monoplane. The LZ 17 also left the hangar and made an 8-hour flight, with 15 "official" persons.
The Union Pfeil at Johannisthal has wire/uncovered wheels.

Now we have found out which plane that is, however - on all photos i have this "Union" type has wired wheels, or better non-covered ones. So even while this photo cannot be from before october 26th, 1913, it also could be from any time until 1916 - the year the LZ 17 was broken up.

The hangar in Dresden did not exist before october 26th, 1913, when it was introduced to the public with a celebration and the show flying of - among others - pilot Hanitz in a "Union Pfeil".
While i would love to think the photo was taken at or around the hangar being first presented to the public, we would need a bit more evidence.

Has anyone an idea when this photo might be taken ?

Thanks for reading, greetings,
Catfish

[Aquilius]

Hi Catfish,

please do not think there is no interest in "non-Breguet challenges"!
It's just you found a real rarity here! I couldn't say what it is by a finger snip only.


And then I do not have to much time for a deeper research (exams on thursday...) but I took a few minutes last night to see what I have on Union designes, by your assumption.

After all I think you are not that far away.
There was this "Bomhard Pfeil-Doppeldecker" built by the Union Flugzeugwerke, the first aircraft after a possibly second "Monobiplan" or whatever, if the statement is right that Bomhard built a similar model to the Lohner machine with Union.

I only have this head-on shot, but the main feats - wing design and engine covering are recognisable.
• the wings are heavily arrowed and the upper wings seem to move downward at the end
• while the lower wings have some 'hammock'-appearance (also visible in your pic)
• two upright and one pair of oblique outer struts.
• gravity tank ontop the center section
• and an unique metal engine covering. (If I can trust my eyes, these star-shaped incisions at the front are visible in your side-view as well)

I think we can agree, as all the main features are similar in both pics, we are probably looking at the same design here -> the Bomhard designed Pfeil-Doppeldecker. I have not seen it from the side and did not know of the slim looking fuselage.

This was the forerunner of the record plane (planes?) flown by Sablatnig at the Herbstflugwoche 1913. I do not know exactly when it was completed, but Sablatnig has been in Vienna with it (this Bomhard Pfeil-DD) and won some prices at the 2. International Flugmeeting at the Aspern Airfield. Need to look up the dates, but they were usually held in spring/early summer (May or June).

The machine often photographed in Johannisthal in Oktober 1913 with "U 1" at the tailfin was another design that belonged to series of 5 different planes "Union Pfeil-Doppeldecker". I have 5 different machines that varied in engines and wing design, but all are known under one name only and all appeared 1913. I numbered them Nr.1 - Nr.5, but not neccessarily in the right order. Bomhard had also his fingers in the developement, together with Sablatnig and König.



You secondary hints with the caption were not of big help for me. And I'm not an airship expert. But LZ 17 "Sachsen" was, if I'm not mistaken, the airship with 419 journeys until WW1, the most among all Zeppelins. It probably has been everywhere in Germany.
I had no idea why this Union biplane has been in Dresden. Please can you give a source of that. And finally, I'm not sure if this machine was capable doing loops at all.

If there is more to find, then on friday.


Cheers

Aquilius

[Catfish]

Hello D-Aqui ,

thanks for answering, it already gave the impression of a monologue
The thing is i got this picture from a friend Andi Krug, when Luftschiffharry made the proposal to find out the time of this photograph of the L17, by identifying the plane :



I wondered about the descending pipe at the rear engine's end, but it is a pair of struts. as you can see in the photos below - some photos of the "Union Pfeildoppeldecker" at Johannisthal, i'm pretty sure it is that plane:




Just found this in an old magazine: "U2", with closed wheels ! Maybe it is this very plane in the hangar ?




" ... and an unique metal engine covering. (If I can trust my eyes, these star-shaped incisions at the front are visible in your side-view as well)
..."
Yes, this metal engine covering looks very advanced, i thought of a much later plane, if at all WW1 - this got me fooled for quite some time.

" ... "Sachsen" was, if I'm not mistaken, the airship with 419 journeys until WW1, the most among all Zeppelins. It probably has been everywhere in Germany. ..."
That is the problem, but at the first photo of this post, it is indeed the Sachsen in Dresden - must be after october 26th, 1913, because this is the date when the hangar was completed.

"... I had no idea why this Union biplane has been in Dresden. Please can you give a source of that. And finally, I'm not sure if this machine was capable doing loops at all. ..."
Because the 1st photo shows the Sachsen and this questionable biplane in the hangar at Dresden .

A second source is an article from 1988 (anlaesslich des 75. Jahrestages, 26. Oktober 1913 der Eröffnung der Luftschiffhalle Dresden):

" ... Mit 15 Passagieren an Bord [...] wurde die "Sachsen" langsam aus der Halle manövriert [...] Kurz, nachdem das Luftschiff in der Ferne verschwunden war, begannen die Motoren von sieben Flugzeugen zu knattern [...] Als erster trat Kanitz auf seinem Union-Pfeil-Doppeldecker die Reise in die Luft an [...] Immer wieder erregten die Piloten bei den Zuschauern allgemeines Erstaunen, wie sie ihre Flugapparate steuerten, Kurvenflüge zeigten, auf- und niederstiegen, die Halle umkreisten, starteten und landeten ... Besonders der Dresdner Kanitz begeisterte mit seinen elegant-verwegenen Kurvenflügen das Publikum. ..."
Von Loopings der "Union" ist tatsächlich keine Rede, mein Fehler. Ein paar Wochen später kam Pégoud nach Dresden, der machte denn auch loopings..

Das Original oder zumindest einen Scan des Artikels hat der Andi Krug.

Viel Glueck beim Examen !

Thanks and greetings,
Catfish

[Varese2002]

Originally Posted by Catfish

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thanks for answering, it already gave the impression of a monologue
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Thanks and greetings,
Catfish

I have not have time to look into this interesting picture, but will do so Your picture is certainly very interesting. When I get it right the purpose is dating of the picture of L17 in the hangar by identifying the biplane, which may give a narrower date for the L17 ?

The Union Pfeilflieger pictures are both of them at Johannisthal pre-war. The second one Nr. 237 originates from Willi Hackenberger 'Deutschlands Eroberung der Luft' from 1915.

Tomorrow I will look further in it, it is now too late.

Kees

[LewisS]

There was another image of the "U1" Union Doppeldecker at Rosebud's WWI image website, the image was of the plane in flight.

I made a 3D model of it for the RC flight sim Flying Model Simulator, based on some guesses of what the front looked like, I had it sporting a Benz inline six and side radiators. Now proven wrong with these images. Do the openings in the front of the fuselage admit air for an internal radiator?

[Aquilius]

Catfish, you opened a very interesting black box here!

When I look now at your pics of the Union Pfeil-Doppeldecker "U2" - I'm asking myself if I'm right with my statement of the "Bomhard aircraft".
May it be that it was modified from the first version? It got a new tail and other aerodynamic refinements, including wheel covers, with that it flew again at the Herbstflugwoche at Johannisthal and maybe in Dresden few days before?

I think I got that picture from Richard some time ago.
Guess when - right, after challenge #419.

Just for your statement, when you know Kanitz flew this biplane in Dresden and there was held a meeting for the opening of the new Zeppelin hall - you can be very sure this picture was taken around the 26. Oktober 1913. Maybe one day before or after. A visit of a Zeppelin and then the "Sachsen" would be appropriate to that event.

I must admit I don't know very much of several meetings that were held out of Berlin. This probably was not a competition and is therefore not often mentioned in the literature. I would apreciate to receive a scan from that article. Maybe you can ask for or get me in contact with Andi Krug?
But you know - better on Friday.


Cheers

Aquilius


PS: Lewis, the "U1" Pfeil-Doppeldecker was a different aircraft with side radiators - this one had obviously an internal one.

[Varese2002]

Originally Posted by Catfish

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Just found this in an old magazine: "U2", with closed wheels ! Maybe it is this very plane in the hangar ?



----

The picture of the Union Pfeil Doppeldecker (marking U2 on the tail) can be dated at between 29.IX.1913 and 3.X.1913. On several dates this machine was used by Sablatnig for breaking of height records.

29.IX.1913 German height record with 2 passengers

30.IX.1913 World height record with 3 passengers

1.X.1913 World height record with 4 passengers (2080 meter in 36 minutes)

2.X.1913 World height record with 5 passengers (401 kg total weight of passengers) (1000 meter)

All records were flown at the Herbstflugwoche in Johannisthal which ended on 5.X.1913. [It is beyond my imaganation how 5 people - probably small - were scrambled in this machine, but since I have seen pictures of record flights with people sitting / lying on the wings everything is possible

Source: Flugsport 1913 No.21 page 798-799.

Unfortunately there is a another picture of Sablatnig and two passengers in an Union Pfeil-Doppeldecker, where the Union shows side radiators. Obviously another machine, maybe we are looking in at the Hrebstflugwoche 1912. Mysteries continue



As quoted by Lange (1986 edition) several engines were fitted to the Union Pfeil Doppeldecker all around 100 - 120 hp of Austro-Daimler, Argus and Daimler. The picture given there of the Austro-Daimler Union biplane on Aspern did not fit with your picture at all.

A big enlargement of your picture shows that the machine has its radiator just above the cylinders of the engine, as often seen in early German machines. IMO there is no form of interior radiator as suggested. The tube you see in the view is then one of the tubes connecting the radiator to the cooling elements in the engine.

Looking into the Bomhard Pfeil-Doppeldecker - of which the Union Doppeldecker was a development - I noted from pictures in Flugsport 1913 that the machine had skids in the undercarriage (anti-nose over). IMO this rules out the Bomhard Pfeil-Doppeldecker as a candidate.

Considering all I would qualify this Pfeil-Doppeldecker in the Zeppelin hall (probably at Johannisthal) as a Union Pfeil-Doppeldecker with Argus engine (4 cylinder - 110 hp as the most likely one) and a radiator fitted right above the engine.



Kees

[richard B]

Bonjour

Aquilius picture comes from Supf Bd 2 p.165 .

About the U 1 ,I believe it was a 3-bay biplane .

Here ,another pic showing the record breaking machine ,from an AeroKurier of the seventies

[Aquilius]

Kees, what made you think the "U2" was used as the record plane?

Have a look to the pciture you added. There are clearly side radiators visible and a forward placed cockpit, as well as in the picture offered by Richard. This was "U1" - so far I know the aircraft used by Sablatnig for all the passenger records at Johannisthal.

The photos showing the complete aircraft present a two-bay machine with nearly equal span wings. (i.e. on this Sanke 218 - also with 5 passengers?)

Same picture is in >Taschenbuch der Luftflotten 1914<. Below is shown a "Vorderansicht" (front view). Just this machine had three-bay wings and additional oblique outer struts to the upper wing with enlarged span - obviously a different aircraft. There are no side radiators and it also had skids at the landing gear. (The Bomhard type?)


And yes, I've been wrong with the machine flown in Aspern. This Austro-Daimler powered had no circular cowl, but a somehow squared front with a (for 1913) very advanced front- or nose radiator. It was also a two-bay only without oblique struts.


Then the Bomhard type was built in 1912, but I doubt a participation at the Herbstflugwoche 1912. The Herbstflugwoche 1913 might be possible as well, but the Zeppelin hangar at Johannisthal had more upright walls with rectangular hangar doors and not this semi-circle appearance.

Will add a few pictures here later.


Cheers

Aquilius