Questions on Italian aircraft manufacturers

[Aquilius]

I'm puzzeled a while by trying to figure out the story about aircraft manufacturers from Italy.
There is very little to find in the web and I'm confused by a few of the designations I found.

Here are the companies that are little mysterious to me:

• Pomilio - Società Anonima per Costruzioni Aeronautiche Ing. Ottorino Pomilio & Co.
Foundet 1916 in Torino
Ottorino and his brother Alessandro went to the USA in summer 1918. The company was sold then, but to whom? To Ansaldo? Savoia? Or Fiat? (found notes about all of them)

• Savoia - Società Anonima Construzioni Aeronautiche Savoia
Foundet 1913 by Umberto Savoia.
The company was taken over by SIAI in 1920 and became SIAI-Savoia, eventually named SIAI-Marchetti / Savoia-Marchetti after designer Alessandro Marchetti joined the firm in 1922. Today it belongs to Aermacchi.
But was there a merger with Pomilio once? Or why do I find designations of Savoia-Pomilio aircraft sometimes?

• SIA - Società Italiana degli Aeroplani
Foundet 1913 in Milano (also found a name “Società Italiana Aviazone”)
This company built aircrafts designated S.P. 1, S.P. 2, ... (what does this stand for? Is it what I think?)
I have nearly nothing about this company. Did it create a subsidary in Torino 1916?
And may it be that SIA was purchased by Fiat finally?

• SIAI - Società Idrovolanti Alta Italia
Foundet 1915 also in Milano
Here I know it remained seperate throughout the war and it became SIAI-Savoia in 1920.

• Ansaldo - Gio. Ansaldo & Co.
Obviously the best known company apart from Caproni.
But what made Umberto Savoia together with Rodolfo Verduzio to design the S.V.A. Series aircraft for Ansaldo while the Savoia company, that existed until 1920, did not issue any/many/some little noticed aircraft?

And finally
• Fiat

It seems all aircraft companies mentioned above are connected to each other. And if not you find a connection to Fiat with all of them. (Not only because Fiat was the major engine supplier) What role did Fiat play in the wartime? Was it the head of all/most companies from 1916 on?
You can find the designation “Fiat/Savoia-Pomilio” i.e. The first time in 1913 when Italy purchased the licence to built the Farman “Shorthorn”. (Am I right that all of them [Fiat; Savoia & Pomilio] built it? Or it just has been a Fiat-engined Savoia or Pomilio then?)


Would be great if you could help me to unravel this knot.

Cheers

Aquilius

[erri]

... so try to join those words with a dot aeroclubtorino it (slash) storia-guerra htm


1. pomilio

La stessa sorte toccò infine alla citata Societa’ Industrie Aeronautiche POMILIO che fu assorbita dall’ANSALDO ed il suo moderno stabilimento con 10.000 mq. e relativo campo di volo (oggi AERITALIA) passarono alla produzione degli SVA.
= the same fate occurred at Societa’ Industrie Aeronautiche POMILIO, who was taken from ANSALDO along with their own modern 10.000 mq factory and flight field (today AERITALIA), who were turned to SVA (= savoia - verduzio - ansaldo) production...

2. savoia
savoia was an engineer with MANY collaborations.

Nel 1916 fu fondata la “Soc. Anonima costruz.aeronautiche ing. O. POMILIO &C” per la costruzione di velivoli SP (Savoia Pomilio) su progetto appunto dell’ing. Savoia.
= on 1916 was founded “Soc. Anonima costruz.aeronautiche ing. O. POMILIO &C” to produce SP (Savoia Pomilio) aircrafts based on Eng. Savoia plans

3. sia

Il maggiore numero di velivoli uscì dalle officine della FIAT-SIA (Società Italiana Aviazione) di via Madama Cristina e di via Nizza in cui, dopo alcune serie di M. Farman tipo 1914, prese il via la produzione, su licenza, dei Pomilio (SP1, SP2, SP3)
=the largest aircraft production was built in FIAT-SIA (Società Italiana Aviazione) - Via Madama Cristina and Via Nizza factories - where, after some M. Farman series, started the licensed production of Pomilio (SP1, SP2, SP3)
[seems as SIA need FIAT factories]

(4 - siai - ok)

5+6. ansaldo + fiat and more connections...


Il biplano Asteria n.2 fu il primo apparecchio di progetto e costruzione italiana impegnato in operazioni belliche, essendo stato inviato nel 1912 a Bengasi con la squadriglia di aviatori volontari civili, mobilitata per il conflitto italo-turco.

=the biplane Asteria n.2 was the first aircraft born from Italian plans and construction to partecipate in war theatre, being send on 1912 in Bengasi (Benghazi, Libya)...



Dallo stabilimento SIT (Societa’ Italiana Transarea), ubicato in corso Peschiera con un’area coperta di 4.000 mq., uscirono apparecchi Bleriot, Farman e Savoia Pomilio SP2, quest’ultimo su licenza FIAT - SIA.
Nel 1917 la SIT fu assorbita dalla genovese Ansaldo per produrre al ritmo di 40-60 al mese i mitici SVA, (Savoia, Verduzio, Ansaldo) su progetto del torinese Savoia e del napoletano Verduzio. (...)
Anche un’altra importante industria aeronautica, la AER di Orbassano, seguì lo stesso percorso della SIT. Dopo aver prodotto su licenza velivoli da ricognizione Caudron G3 e G4, FIAT-SIA SP2, SP3 e SPA, la fabbrica fu acquistata dall’ANSALDO per incrementare la produzione dei richiestissimi modelli SVA.

By SIT (Societa’ Italiana Transarea) factory, sited in Corso Peschiera with a 4.000 mq covered working area, were built Bleriot, Farman, Savoia Pomilio SP2 (FIAT - SIA was building on license from Pomilio, SIT was building on license from FIAT - SIA
On 1917 SIT was taken from Genuan Ansaldo to built 40-60 SVA per month.
Another main aircraft factory (Orbassano - near Turin) AER, followed SIT. After a licensed production of Caudron G3, G4, FIAT-SIA SP2, SP3, SPA, the factory was purchased from Ansaldo to increase the claimed SVA

[Mark II]

Originally Posted by Aquilius

• Ansaldo - Gio. Ansaldo & Co.
Obviously the best known company apart from Caproni.
But what made Umberto Savoia together with Rodolfo Verduzio to design the S.V.A. Series aircraft for Ansaldo while the Savoia company, that existed until 1920, did not issue any/many/some little noticed aircraft?

1245 SVA.5 were delivered.

[erri]

this is really interesting due to pics... but doesn't add much more about factories history

as you know, i must write the address in spaces to be completed by dots....

www comune torino it (slash) circ10 (slash) ecomuseo (slash) archivio (slash) libro_Mirafiori_in_volo (slash) mostra2008 pdf

[Aquilius]

erri, thanks a million for offering some input here!

And thanks again for the pages.
I think I'm not so bad finding things in the web, only I'm not so familiar with te italian space. Will take me some time to get through it.


So finally Ansaldo took over the Pomilio factory.

And SIA was part of FIAT - or a subsidary / division?


And as you told also a lot of the companies licence built the few domestic designes that were purchased by the army. Like the Savoia-Pomilio aircrafts were built by SIA, SIT and AER I think.


Just the question remains what happened to Savoia's company. It was founded to produce Farman copies for the army or flying schools after Umberto Savoia bought or licence-built an early Farman pusher, am I right?

To sum up, after reading your post a second time (please correct me if I'm wrong)

"in Italian tradition the designer was always named after the company..."
[don't know where I read this some time ago]

Ottorino Pomilio was involved in the design of the Savoia-Pomilio, but worked for Savoia then. The Farman developement SP.1 dates from 1915, or not?
He founded an own company in 1916 to increase the output. And Savoia was busy to produce the SP.3 & SP.4 at least until 1917?


Okay, I'll better read first what your promising pages do bring to light.


Cheers

Aquilius

[Ray Watkins]

Hello Aquilius

I relation to SIAI, and its fate, I have attached an extract from a book that I am writing to be titled Trimotors: An illustrated History of the World's Three-engined Aircraft. I hope it is useful

Regards

Ray

__________________________________________________ _________

Societa Idrovolanti Alta Italia (SIAI) and Societa Italiana Aeroplani Idrovolanti-Savoia Marchetti (SIAI-Savoia Marchetti)[/B]

The Societa Idrovolanti Alta Italia (SIAI) was founded by Luigi Cape in 1915 at Sesto Calende, with a seaplane base at Lake Maggiore, to produce licence-built FBA flying boats under the trading name ‘Idrovolanti Savoia’. Aircraft produced after the First World War were commonly referred to as ‘Savoia’ types. Ing Allesandro Marchetti became technical director in 1922. The name of the firm was changed to Societa Italiana Aeroplani Idrovolanti-Savoia Marchetti (SIAI-Savoia Marchetti) in 1937. Aircraft types produced before 1937 had a sequential model number with the prefix ‘S’ (for Savoia) and after the name change this prefix was altered to ‘S.M.’ (for Savoia Marchetti ). Some models which spanned the company name change retained the ‘S’ prefix (eg the S.79 Sparveiro).

[paolomiana]

Hi All,

Aquilius, both Savoia and Pomilio (and Verduzio & Rosatelli) were Italian Army officers. At the time they, if I remember it right, were working for DTAM (Technical Directorate of Military Aviation ). They design the S.P. X that were reproduced under licence by several companies. Also SVA was born as an Army design.

Pomilio leaves Army in 1917 (or 1916?) to create his own company and procuce Pomilio PC PD PE PF recce and Gamma fighter. Laterly Pomilio company was hired by Ansaldo (or FIAT?) and He and his brothers leave for US until late 1918 (1919?)

SIA was a branch of FIAT (in Italy is wide diffused the joke abouit this names "SIA" is italian word for latin "FIAT") Probably tha name was choosen for "political matters". After WWI, due to the mess of SIA 7b/9b/14b, FIAT decide to use its real name in aircraft production.

SIAI and Savoia during WWI were completely different companies, the first add to its name the suffix Savoia later, and after Italian King in consideration to its effort in seaplane production (so not for the designer-sometimes also referred as Savoja). SIAI WWI tech director was Coflenti.

Ansaldo aircraft production survived far later than 1920 with several new aircraft producted - as AC2 and AC3 (Dewoitine copies?) for ground support

Hope this could be helpful, despite some possible year mistakes.

cheers

Paolo

[Aquilius]

Thanks Paolo!

I hoped to get notes from you.

Slowly it seems to make some sense.


From what I know the Pomilio Brothers got an offer from the US in August 1918 and left the same year to the McCook Airfield.
They might have sold their company to Ansaldo that was finally taken over (the aircraft division only, I think) by FIAT in 1925.


Only the Savoia comapny remains a bit mysterious to me.

I just found: SIAI - Marchetti

Here is told Domenico Lorenzo Santoni founded the company in 1913.
But why named "Savoia" then?
(was it in honour of king Vittorio Emanuele di Savoia III. ??)
It conflated with SIAI in 1915 already.

And further on is told Domenico Santoni (beeing the owner ?) replaced the technical director Raffaele Conflenti by Alessandro Marchetti in 1920.
(Conflenti went to France and became director of CAMS that now licence built SIAI-Savoia flying boats)

All designes are called Savoia S.xy - not SIAI S.yz.

Just this page doesn't appear that professional with all it's advertisements and the whole setup.



The merger of SIAI and Savoia I have from Wiki.

While the French and Polish site offers almost nothing, the English is little incomplete and quotes Umberto Savoia beeing the founder of Savoia.
The German and Italian site tells a longer story but offer no accesseble source and siai-marchetti.com is a little contradictory here.



Finally, is there a company I can credit the SP. aircraft to?


Cheers

Aquilius