Breguet's CITAR challenge #1

[Breguet]

I thought I might try something new and see if people are interested.

The idea of the challenge is that I will post a Combat In The Air Report. They everyone can see just how much info we can gather about the Report that isn't already in it.

Points could then be awarded for info found aand a table started like in the Breguet challenges of the Aircraft section. Anyway let see how we go.

[Froggy]

Hello Breguet

this Citar challenge seems to be interesting but what we are supposed to give as informations is not clear for me

For this challenge what can be said is that in 28/7/17 John Henry Tudhope ( a 7 victories aces) was badly shot by Adolf Ritter von Tuschek (who was awarded a victory)for that -He flew the nieuport 17 B1558 at 40 squadron
Harold gained 3 victories with the same plane in June/july 1917

Dont know if Its enough or if you need something else ?

anyway thanks for that new type of challenge Breguet

Cordialement
Bruno

[Breguet]

Hi Froggy,

I was thinking things like what squadron was he messing with? Were there any German reports of this action?, Do we know anything else about Ni B1558 (like you found out it was a 17). How accurate is the comment/description of the aircraft engaged? That sort of thing. Sometimes what we find is minimal others will be more fruitful.

[austin08]

Hello Breguet,
What a great idea! I think Von Tutschek either claimed a triplane from Naval 8 flown by Crundell (A Revell) or a nieuport (Jasta war chronology)- certaintly there are no losses to 40 squadron recorded in Henshaw TSTB. Jasta 12 had black rear fuselage & tail + white spinners as opposed to clubs & crosses. So who were the albatri?

[Kilian]

Nice idea with the game

On this day Jasta 12 moved to Roucourt airfield. von Tutschek made his 19th and 20th victory. The naval plane you mentioned and "zwischen Lens und Liévin einen Nieuport", Lt JF Tudhope landed safely in his own lines. (Schmeelke).

[austin08]

40 squadron & Naval 8 did indeed have aerodromes in the same general location - Naval 8 at Auchel & 40 squadron at Treizennes. Almost directly to the east , Jasta 30 was operating from Phalempin. On August 11 Booker of Naval 8 would shoot down Von Tutschek wounding him in the shoulder . On September 27 Tudhope & Booker would share a victory over an Albatros Dv of Jasta 37 flown by Oblt Waldhausen (The so called Eagle of Lens)

[Gregvan]

Hi Breguet,

Well, as you no doubt know, this particular combat has been studied and dissected by historians for many years - it's one of the better known combats. Tudhope was flying with Lts Mick Mannock and H A Kennedy when they ran into von Tutschek and Jasta 12. According to the No. 40 men the Albatrosse were light in color, with patches of yellow and green. This is a general impression, gained in fleeting glimpses in hectic air-to-air combat. The Albatrosse certainly had black tails, with fuselages in light varnished yellow, and wings camouflaged in green and mauve or greens and brown - this (together with a variety of personal markings) could result in Tudhope's impression of 'various colors'.

Mannock landed first and related his experiences to MacLanachan, saying he had never been so frightened. When Tudhope landed a few minutes later, Mannock said that 'Poor old Tud must be shot to hell." MacLanachan wrote (in "Fighter Pilot", under his pseudonym of McScotch):

"Tud's machine was in such a condition that it might have been sent to a flying school to act as an inpiration and a warning to budding fighters. An explosive bullet had burnt through his main spar a few inches from the V strut, and one of the top planes had been cut to ribbons by bullets, every one of his instruments was smashed, and a bullet had passed through his coat collar. Tud's face was a study, it depicted a combination of cynicism and amusement. He had certainly been very close to death that morning.

"It transpired that crossing the lines towards Douai they had encountered some nine (or seven? GVW) enemy scouts flying in formation. Mick, intent on 'showing 'em,' had waded into the Germans, only to be met with a vigorous resistance, from which he had been only too glad to escape. The Germans also, finding they could not destroy the three Nieuports, considered that their victory was not assured."

Kennedy noted an Albatros marked with what he called a "purple club". Tudhope's remark about "some marked with clubs and Crosses" is also noted. Did he mean the standard German Iron Cross insignia, or something in addition to that?

It is generally accepted that the Albatros marked with a "club" insignia refers to the D.V flown by Friedrich Hochstetter:



Hochstetter had served in the artillery, and for a personal insignia he chose the 'stacked shot' emblem of his old service. This could easily be mistaken for an ace of clubs by the RFC pilots. Though Kennedy described a purple club, I think it was simply black - which might appear purple under certain lighting conditions. Similarly, Mannock mentioned a purple Albatros - his famous "purple man". I believe this was actually von Tutschek in his black-fuselaged Albatros D.V, with mauve and green camouflaged wings (it was Ed Ferko's idea that the purple man was von Bertrab of Jasta 30 - whose Albatros D.III was also largely black - but I think it was von Tutschek). Again, with sunlight glinting off painted plywood and doped surfaces, I think von Tutschek's black Albatros looked purple under some circumstances.

Anyway, von Tutschek claimed, and was credited with, a Nieuport in this fight. It's generally believed that this was Tudhope. While von Tutschek "overclaimed" and did not actually shoot Tudhope down, he certainly shot up his airplane and left a deep impression on the 40 Sqn pilots.

In his diary, sadly, von Tutschek does not go into detail about this combat, On the next day, he wrote:

"Yesterday at 0750 hrs I downed a triplane near Mericourt. At 1000 a Neiuport fighter near Lievin and today at 0800 a new SE 5 at Henin-Lietard. They went down burning on this side. With that one I personally scored the 100th air victory of the Staffel in my black Albatros."

Yes, I'm sure Russ Gannon will jump in here and cite these victories as more egregious examples of German over-statements and overclaiming . I will only say that a good number of von Tutschek's victories are exptremely well documented, and he had plenty of RFC/RAF/American company in the overclaiming department.

How's that, Breguet?

Greg

[Breguet]

I think we can call this one pretty well answered!

Well done that man!

CITAR Investigation Awards

Gregvan 5
Froggy 1
Kilian 1
Austin08 1

[Gregvan]

Hi Again,

I must emphasize that I'm certainly not the first to examine this combat and make these deductions. Way back in 1970, the respected historian Kelly Wills, Jr., devoted an entire issue of his column "Wind Soc" in Cross & Cockade Journal (Volume 11, No.1, Spring 1970) to the combat and his speculation that Mannock's "purple man" was von Tutschek. Then our own Norman Franks and Hal Giblin expanded on this in "Under the Guns of the Kaiser's Aces," in which they examined von Tutschek's victory claims.

It's been suggested by Norman (and others) that the German aircraft described as being marked with "crosses" may indeed refer to more than just the standard German insignia. It might have been this D.V from Jasta 12:



Tudhope's personal diary entry for the day read:

"Early patrol --nothing doing but plenty of Archie. Came down from N. of Ypres right on the ground.Landed at Mazingarbe and went to breakfast with the Canadians at rest near the ground. Got back to ground in time to answer EA call over Lerns - went up, three of us, over Arras and came up well east of Lens. Sighted Huns over Lens and attacked. I drove off two temporarily, then went down on third and foolishly went after him. Consequently, was beset by five on my tail pumping lead into me. I thought I was going to catch alite when explosives got me. But went down low, then got strafed from Hun lines as well. Turned twice and fired at nearest Hun, but others closed in on me. Archie saved me then.Two new planes and gun (were required on his a/c -GVW). Bullets through sleeve and collar of my coat."

I am interested in how much more detailed, and harrowing, Tudhope's diary account is when compared to his laconic combat report. Again, Kelly Wills uncovered this tidbit from Tudhope's diary. I've never seen the entire diary, anywhere - I wish I had.

Greg