Mick Mannock's true victory score?

[Barry Hickson]

G'day All!
In quite a number of Magazine Articles & other publications I have seen Mick's score listed as 73.
Was this just from Ira "Taffy" Jones or is there some historical evidence to support this total rather than his official Score?

[redintheskies]

they all say 73. however, he was "officially" credited with 61 of them (approved, i read), although he personally has said he downed 51 (50, they said, when he was awarded the victoria cross). although he did not share any of his victories, mannock was said to have, in recent research, have 1 balloon destroyed, 3 and 2 shared aircraft captured, 31 and 5 shared destroyed, 17 and 3 shared ("out of control"). this is according to "above the trenches" by c. shores, n. franks and r. guest.

it's also said he had about 20 victories in may of 1918 alone. then again, about the 73 total...it's now believed to be author captain james ira thomas jones of the # 74 squadron, rfc (it's said jones HATED bishop!).

however, i cannot say how the 73 total went to mannock. possibly because of who he was. in any case...just, wow. he went insane with grief because of the war. it's horrendous how he died.

[josquin]

Barry,

Some time ago, Graeme presented on this Forum a comprehensive, scrupulously-compiled summary of Mannock's claims using the evidence available now (primarily RFC/RAF communiques). Graeme placed his total as 62. If you add an additional balloon, per his M.C. citation (it states 3 balloons) then his total is 63 rather than the 73 attributed by Ira Jones. The V.C. citation is an added complication that muddles all well-meaning attempts to establish an authoritative final victory tally for Mannock. All such uncertainty notwithstanding, Graeme's survey is detailed, informative, and well worth your time to consider, as is his
post on 18 April 2007.
Regards

Josquin

[Barry Hickson]

Originally Posted by josquin

Barry,

Some time ago, Graeme presented on this Forum a comprehensive, scrupulously-compiled summary of Mannock's claims using the evidence available now (primarily RFC/RAF communiques). Graeme placed his total as 62. If you add an additional balloon, per his M.C. citation (it states 3 balloons) then his total is 63 rather than the 73 attributed by Ira Jones. The V.C. citation is an added complication that muddles all well-meaning attempts to establish an authoritative final victory tally for Mannock. All such uncertainty notwithstanding, Graeme's survey is detailed, informative, and well worth your time to consider, as is his
post on 18 April 2007.
Regards

Josquin

Thanks heaps for that info, Josquin!
I have only been a member since beginning of this year so have missed so much of the great research posted by members over the years.
I will look up the Archives & try to dig out that post.
I did think Ira Jones was the authour of the 73 victories therory so Mick would be "One Up" on Bishop!

[Barry Hickson]

Originally Posted by redintheskies

they all say 73. however, he was "officially" credited with 61 of them (approved, i read), although he personally has said he downed 51 (50, they said, when he was awarded the victoria cross). although he did not share any of his victories, mannock was said to have, in recent research, have 1 balloon destroyed, 3 and 2 shared aircraft captured, 31 and 5 shared destroyed, 17 and 3 shared ("out of control"). this is according to "above the trenches" by c. shores, n. franks and r. guest.

it's also said he had about 20 victories in may of 1918 alone. then again, about the 73 total...it's now believed to be author captain james ira thomas jones of the # 74 squadron, rfc (it's said jones HATED bishop!).

however, i cannot say how the 73 total went to mannock. possibly because of who he was. in any case...just, wow. he went insane with grief because of the war. it's horrendous how he died.

Hi Emily! Yes Mick was a sad example of extreme Battle Fatigue & should have been retired to a training role instead of returning to the Front. He would have been a great tutor to young Pilots.

[redintheskies]

Originally Posted by Barry Hickson

Hi Emily! Yes Mick was a sad example of extreme Battle Fatigue & should have been retired to a training role instead of returning to the Front. He would have been a great tutor to young Pilots.

he should have, yes, but he kept going. i'm still trying to figure out how he got the 73 total victories and not his squadron colleague. i think it was because he was a successful fighter pilot, but then again...

[Graeme]

In a letter dated 7 June 1918, Mannock makes reference to having received the DSO and Bar and having a total of 47 victories, although he considered his total to be 51 at this time.

Grid Caldwell wrote that Mannock had 68 victories at the time of his death and this is more in line with what Mick would have thought his tally to have been.

After the war Taffy Jones agitated for the award of the VC to Mannock and it was during this time that a total of 73, one more than Bishop's, was quoted. This continued to be Mannock's accepted score until Above The Trenches showed that this contained victories that Mannock had not claimed, victories claimed but not credited and some double-counting (ie claims made late in the day not being reported in the Communique until the following day).

Using data from all sources it is possible to create almost any total you like - I once got to 85!

Using first-hand records that still exist - Combat Reports, Wing/Brigade Summaries and Squadron ORBs - a total of around 61 or 62 can be generated.

I think my most recent posting on this topic was in June 2009 and gave a listing of 62 victories.

Graeme

[Barry Hickson]

Originally Posted by Graeme

In a letter dated 7 June 1918, Mannock makes reference to having received the DSO and Bar and having a total of 47 victories, although he considered his total to be 51 at this time.

Grid Caldwell wrote that Mannock had 68 victories at the time of his death and this is more in line with what Mick would have thought his tally to have been.

After the war Taffy Jones agitated for the award of the VC to Mannock and it was during this time that a total of 73, one more than Bishop's, was quoted. This continued to be Mannock's accepted score until Above The Trenches showed that this contained victories that Mannock had not claimed, victories claimed but not credited and some double-counting (ie claims made late in the day not being reported in the Communique until the following day).

Using data from all sources it is possible to create almost any total you like - I once got to 85!

Using first-hand records that still exist - Combat Reports, Wing/Brigade Summaries and Squadron ORBs - a total of around 61 or 62 can be generated.

I think my most recent posting on this topic was in June 2009 and gave a listing of 62 victories.

Graeme

Thank you very much Graeme for your clarification!
I thought "Taffy" was the originator of the 73 score but kept coming across it from time to time & I knew there had been lots of later research done & cross checking.

[redintheskies]

Originally Posted by Graeme

In a letter dated 7 June 1918, Mannock makes reference to having received the DSO and Bar and having a total of 47 victories, although he considered his total to be 51 at this time.

Grid Caldwell wrote that Mannock had 68 victories at the time of his death and this is more in line with what Mick would have thought his tally to have been.

After the war Taffy Jones agitated for the award of the VC to Mannock and it was during this time that a total of 73, one more than Bishop's, was quoted. This continued to be Mannock's accepted score until Above The Trenches showed that this contained victories that Mannock had not claimed, victories claimed but not credited and some double-counting (ie claims made late in the day not being reported in the Communique until the following day).

Using data from all sources it is possible to create almost any total you like - I once got to 85!

Using first-hand records that still exist - Combat Reports, Wing/Brigade Summaries and Squadron ORBs - a total of around 61 or 62 can be generated.

I think my most recent posting on this topic was in June 2009 and gave a listing of 62 victories.

Graeme

very interesting. thank you very much!