Fry's last testament 2

[alex_revell]

To come now to those points in the posts which I can remember. That Willie always regretted not having accompanied B on the raid and therefore made up his story to excuse his not going, and out of pique in not sharing in the glory, is so ludicrous that I hardly know where to start. Firstly it was his duty not to go. Unlike his Flt Com he had a Flight to run and was down to lead it in the first patrol of the morning. Leading a Flight was no little responsibility. Why did B ask Willie to go with him? He must have known that Willie couldn’t, being down to lead the Flight in the morning. The Flight was cancelled by Scott and not by Willie. Anyone with a basic knowledge of the way an RFC squadron was run would know this. Willie did not behave ‘badly’ and did not consider himself wronged. Willie never had a mean bone in his body.
It was not Willie but Bishop himself who said he had landed behind the lines before returning to base. Therefore the feasibility of being able to do so in a Nieuport is a question for other people to answer, not Willie.
No pilot would jettison his gun for the reason given by B. He would be in extremely hot water when asked to account for his losing the property of the King. Throwing away their weapon in the face of the enemy – whether he was there or not – got quite a few PBI court-martialled and shot. The question of whether it was possible to detach the Lewis gun in the air has been gone into at length and, based on the evidence of the replica Nieuport, the consensus of opinion is that it was possible. I accept this. Willie may well have been wrong about this. But remember: he was there, with the real thing, not a replica, which may have been incorrect about the gun mounting.**

Why was B lost on the morning of the raid? He had flown over the area for three months and should have known it well. He should have been able to work out later, perhaps with Scott or the Recording Officer, the most likely route he had flown. I suggest forumites should read Phil Markham’s analysis of this flight in the issue of OTF.**

The exhibits. In the main these were reports obtained by me from the PRO and extracts from Willie’s logbooks. These could not be produced in the statement because they were amongst Willie’s papers on his death. I have no idea where they are now. Possibly in the RAF Museum.

Finally I would ask forumites that when they indulge themselves in personally denigrating a man they never had the privilege of knowing, to kindly remember that Willie and his wife Kitty were friends of my family for many years. We loved them both dearly.

Let's hope no one who knew Billy Bishop very well, ever finds this forum.

[Billy_Bishop]

Kory, unfortunately, I think most of them are dead. And those that aren't, well, let's just say I know for a FACT, they just don't want to get into it.

As far as they are concerned, Bishop wasn't a fraud, and there's no amount of proof available that will prove it.

VBR,

Al Lowe

[Russell]

Thank you Alex for the most reasoned and rational listing of the issues surrounding Bishop. I think we need to ask why was a Canadian scout pilot given the publicity when equally successful pilots (Alan Wilkinson, Thayre, Fullard) etc were operating. He only got clear of the other RFC aces in terms of scores well after the aerodrome event. That leaves out the RNAS pilots. l personally think we understimate the connections of Jack Scott, and the need for positive publicity on Canadians so as to increase the recruiting.

Alex Revell wrote:
Finally I would ask forumites that when they indulge themselves in personally denigrating a man they never had the privilege of knowing, to kindly remember that Willie and his wife Kitty were friends of my family for many years. We loved them both dearly.

I can understand your feelings on this point. Please consider the source. You can not take seriously the remarks of people whose thought processes, based on the evidence of their postings, show that they are not serious people.
Ignore the mudslingers and debate the rational ( you'll both be smarter for it.)

[Ron_F]

Alex,
Bishops reasoning, or 'excuse' probably to some, is that the cloud cover was heavy that day. he had went farther than he intended and was 'lost'. things look very different from the air than they on the ground, esp if your not familiar with it.
for the record.
as to the ability of a Nieport to land, then take off, without chocks, ground crew, is covered in 'Hanging a legend" and which ive mentioned in another thread the almost impossibility of the feat.

if Bish didnt do the raid, he at least tried or got to close to SOMETHING/SOMEONE that fired at him.

vbr
Ron

(and no, im not Canadian)

alex revell

Man, you do have incredible gall. You spend a whole post denigrating Bishop, and than end the post with a whiny plea that posters avoid personally denigrating Fry. What, just because you knew the guy he deserves a pass, and that ends the discussion?! The guy took a run at Bishop. Posters on this forum continually take a run at Bishop. You just took a run at Bishop - essentially called him a conniving liar. As I Bishop supporter I claim equal right to take a run at his detractors. So let me say, that near as I can see Fry was at either a jealous man, a liar, or a coward, or possibly some combination thereof.

In responding to this post kindly remember that its entirely possible that there visitors to this site who are friends of the Bishop family.

[wings]

About 30% of Fry's victories can be identified by German records; maybe 2% of Bishop's. Who looks more truthful?

I don't give a sweet damn what your beloved German records say about Bishop or Fry. The German records are obviously incomplete and inaccurate, and have their own unique methodology in respect of stating their own losses. Fry never made his damning claims about Bishop while Bishop was alive and able to defend himself. This is the most despicable form of slander, and tells me all I need to know about the man. I chose to believe Bishop.

[rammjaeger]

It is a lot easier to be a believer than a rational thinking human being. It saves a lot of brain work.