What Is A Hero? ... revisited!

Hello all,
I just returned from 2 weeks on detachment to Virginia. I read the posts on the previous thread by Thomas that I'd missed while gone. Now comes my rebuttal to some of the individuals on that other thread.
While in Virginia I visited two significant battle sites where this great country of America has been shaped and healed, these were Yorktown and Appomattox respectively. In both sites there were heroes and the ordinary soldiers of both belligerents present. At both of these sites "peace" was forged by the surrender of one of the "enemy". I have come to the conclusion that true heroism is an act of valor whether in the midst of combat, or by an act of moral courage. By moral courage I mean the instances of Washington allowing Cornwallis to keep his sword, or Grant allowing Lee to keep his sword. Or Grant's only term of surrender being that Southerners pledge never to take up arms against the United States.
Why is that moral courage you might ask? Well, Grant had Lee at his mercy, and he could've demanded much more in restitution for the terrible cost of the Civil War. Washington could've kept Cornawallis' sword as a war trophy (by right)and completely stripped the British of any dignity after the surrender, which he didn't.
Heroes aren't just born, they are forged in the heat of strife! Whether they be the one that battles overwhelming odds such as Frank Luke (mandatory WW1 content), or those who show compassion to the defeated enemy such as the soldier that gives the proverbial act of kindness to his dying or defeated foe.

Now for those who think Communism is dead ... it IS alive and well in the hearts of thousands, and if they had the power they WOULD institute it. Why does it still rear it's ugly head?

For those who denigrate the NRA and gun owners, Yorktown would be a just reminder of one of the reasons why we have the 2nd Amendment, a hint here .... the American War for Independence started over British Gun Control efforts. The other reason being self protection ... hey Jane ... call for a Cop, an Ambulance, and a Pizza delivery guy and see who shows up first!

Dresden ... the bona fide military targets were (1) marshalling yards and (2) military barracks. The men who flew the missions were just ordinary servicemen doing their jobs. Did they protest on the grounds that it was an ancient city of art? No. To them it was an enemy city (which it was at the time), and the side effects of the bombing while regrettable were nothing more than a side effect of the technology of the day. Today we could launch a couple of SLAM missiles and surgically remove the bonafide targets without any firestorm. To call these men that flew the mission villains or to condemn their actions is really an act of cowardice. These men were fighting a war, putting their lives on the line on a daily basis so their sons and daughters, and the peoples of other nations could live in a free world and choose their own paths in life. How have we repaid these men for their sacrifice? By judging them in a time of peace by lofty standards while sitting in the security of our own homes, that same security that they won for us at the cost of their own lives, in a time of uncertainty. Sure it was late 1944 but the war wasn't over, Germany wasn't defeated yet! You have to remember ... a war isn't over until ALL the shooting stops!

Lastly, I still stand on the premise that anyone who is fighting for a cause that enslaves other people, are not heroes ... they are tools of evil.
And I too am in the NRA, I do own guns, BUT I do not sit every night and pay homage to them. Whomever thinks that must be out doing recreational pharmaceuticals, or a victim of paranoid dillusions of insecurity. ; )

LET THE GAMES BEGIN!

Regards,
Jim 'ACE' - NNWA 'KEEPER OF THE DRAGON'

time check

[Craig]

While I admit that I was antagonistic on the thread to which Jim refers, I most humbly ask that we stick to the bloody subject.

Jim
I you really want to toss ol' Brer Rabbit in that briar patch again, e-mail me at:

monk-e-boy@excite.com

While I do love a good scrap, this Forum isn't the proper venue for the subjects that rile you the most.

Craig

[Craig]

Jim
Since the Dresden massacre is peripherally related to the subject, I will address that in this forum.

The Friedrichstadt marshalling yards are well to the west of the city center, and the main train station is to the south. There were no barracks in the target area, which is clearly marked on Bomber Command maps as the Altstadt, or Old Town. The barracks are to the north, in Antonstadt. And the ordnance used was not the sort used to tear up rail lines, but to burn buildings. The attackers knew exactly what they were doing, which was to burn the city center and as many of the people in it as possible.

Furthermore, the stated intent of the bombing was to terrorize the population, and create refugees. This is State Terrorism. I don't care if the Nazis did it - we're supposed to be better than that!

I did not denigrate the men whose job it was to do the dirty work, but the politicians and Arthur Harris who planned this sort of thing are really no better than some of the blokes who got their reward at Nuremburg.

Also, Dresden was bombed on 13-14 February, 1945.


Craig

[stephen]

I thought this was a "what's a hero to you?" thread. What's all this Dresden stuff?

Anyway... my idea of a hero is someone who does not compromise their beliefs regardless of the odds, the price, or who opposes them. George Washington is at the top of my hero list for those exact reasons. So is Frank Luke, although his is more centered around punctuated courage at critical moments rather than lifelong greatness. Jesus Christ would be tops, but then using God is cheating.

But I'm still lost on the whole Dresden thing.

[Ginger.]

Real heroes are my wife and kids,putting up with 30 years of me at this game.Or a nurse,ambulanceman,or fireman.

What is a hero? I always liked "Hawkeye" Pierce's (from M*A*S*H) explanation. Ninety percent of the time it's someone who is too tired and too hungry to give a damn.

As for Dresden? Hmm. We're at war with Germany. The city is a legitimate target. The Allies are using the best available technology. Not much of an argument there.

The other stuff? I agree, it's not the proper venue, really, for this forum. I doubt there are masses of communists lurking in our closets these days (my parents' personal experiences in the 50s dealing with the IDIOTS who supported McCarthy and his ilk have told me quite enough about the uniquely American pathology of fearing "Reds" everywhere) and as much as I LOVE to discuss the American Revolution, this isn't the place to do so.

So. The SPAD A-2. It sucked as a fighter, yes?

Why did the French give them to the Russians?

[Barrett]

It's much easier to define what a hero is not, to wit:
"Sports hero" (a real nonsequitor unless we're discussing blood sports in which the price for losing is death.) That omits OJ, Michael Jordan, and anybody else who makes a living with a ball but who are constantly called heroes. Same for politicians: I recently saw someone call Dick Cheney "a genuine American hero." No explanation, of course, never mind that he cast a generation of naval aviators to the PC wolves.
The price of moral heroism may be death (Sir Thomas Moore) but more often is considerably less. Therefore, why does moral courage seem rarer than physical courage? Exhibit A: the current generation of star-wearers in the US armed forces.
My immediate hero--my father, who has had the courage and character to resist polio, cancer, advanced arthritis, and greater pain than a more charitable diety would allow, while teaching me to fly besides.

[Vic_Mouton]

Welcome back Jim
I do miss your posts when you are not around.

Just one quiestion: You mentioned: Lastly, I still stand on the premise that anyone who is fighting for a cause that enslaves other people, are not heroes ... they are tools of evil.

Wasn't it you that calledo Erich Hartmann the Big Cahuna, Numero Uno etc? Although he resisted the Commies for 10 years after the war that still just makes him a tool of evil.

Just wondering

VBR
Vic

Vic,
Skillwise, Erich Hartmann is the top dog among flyers. I believe his 352 kills and living to tell about them makes him top dog. He does hold the title of Worlds Leading Ace. But he DID fight for the Nazis after all didn't he?! While his resistance of the Communists is admirable, the cause for which he fought, in essence, sought to enslave those whom they had conquered. For in the ideology of the Nazi's there was only one super race, the blond haired, blue eyed Nordic Teutons, everyone else was only around to serve their needs. Does this mean that E.H. was a died in the wool Nazi? Probably not! But he was their tool in their attempt to conquer Russia. While I admire the man's skill on a professional military level, I cannot in good conscience agree with what he was fighting for! One can hold one's foe in high esteem for his skill, but not glorify him for his ideals. My heroes are the ones who fought for others freedom, and fought for their beliefs with skill against the odds. George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, John Paul Jones, Andrew Jackson, Robert E. Lee (states rights), Joshua L. Chamberlain (Little Round Top), Frank Luke, Gregory 'Pappy' Boyington. Even some of the POW's who still fought against their captors while in captivity, etc. Those who give their all in the defense of noble ideals are definitely in this group.
Regards,
Jim 'ACE'