RAF on Italian Front

May 3 1918 was a day of intensive and confused fighting. Austrians claim 3 Spads, one two-seater, a kite balloon and a Camel. There is non confirmation of any of them, but the daily despatch of the Italian Air command reports loss of one Camel. I don't believe it figures in any published account. Has anybody got any clue?

[Soderbaum]

Roberto,
The official Austrian monthly list of confirmed victories only have 2 confirmed victories this Day.
The first a Spad by fw Robert Grabenhofer of Flik 61 at Monastir as his first victory. It was confirmed from the A-H side by VII K.K.
The second a Spad was shot down by Oblt dR Benno Ritter von Fiala as his 19th victory at Spresiano.
This chrash was confirmed by the 58 I.D from the A-H side.
Perhaps the other victories went unconfirmed or was reconfirmed.
Give my greetings to Paolo..!
When is Your book ready for bying ??
VBR
Gunnar

Gunthar,

I fly in a A-H cybersquad(in Red Baron 3D). We are Flik61j & do you have info on Flik61j kills from January to the end? Would it be possible for you to send them to me?
many thanks,

Keith,

[Soderbaum]

Roberto
Sky Their Battlefield(STB) gives only one RE 8 of
34 sq as damaged by AA this Day. But perhaps the excellnet book The Camel File has the answer... I am preparing to buy it.
Both 28 sq and 66 sq were active this Day and claimed victories, so they are possible candidates..
The fact that Flik 61 also lost one pilot this Day fw Ladislaus Tomana KIA over Italian lines at
Isola di Sopra can perhaps lead to some identification.
The Italian claimed 5 victories in Air combat this
Day and 2 by AA according to Paolo.
Did the Italian units did not have any Sopwith Camels..?
The French squadron in Italy flew some Sopwith 1 1/2 Strutters..?

Keith
I only have these monthly Official A-H victory list until August 1918. If You mail me yor address
I can make copies for You(dont have a scanner yet). But I think the War Diary, personal list and
victory list until EOW of Flik 61 can be found in the Archive in Vienna.
VBR
Gunnar

Ok thank you! So the info can be found in Vienna? I'm goign there next year!

I'll email my address later & I don't think the Italians ever used the Camel(almost certain) but A-H pilot had a VERY bad habit of mixing up Hanriots with camels!
keith,

Flik 61/J claimed 15 victory in total:
Januar 1918 10 combats, 2 victory
februar 1918 6 combats 1 victory
March 1918 38 combats 4 victory
april 1918 no combats
may 1918 16 combats 1 victory
june 1918 25 combats 1 victory
july 1918 20 combats, no victory
august 1918 23 combats 1 victory
september 1918 22 combats 3 victory
october 1918 2 victory data only for the first
two weeks

Please note however that overclaims by the Austrians is exceptionnally high, but at presents I have no time to control my files in search of "True" losses.

Thank you sir.
However I once again disagree with you on the overclaiming. You don't go by kills by varifying the enemy's losses.....Plus Italians were just as bad as were the Brits,French,German, & all other airforces....Except the belgians who hardly ever claimed their kills!

keith,

Wo sad that I don't verify the claims? I have catalogued italian,british,french,austrian and German losses day by day, but they are enormous files.......: I have spend the last six years doing it......controlling place of Squadrons, hour etc. etc.:it's a hard work beleve me..and I'm not finished yet.
Yes, there is overclaiming everywere, but I have noticed with greath surprise,that italian overclaim are far less than that of the so acclaimed austrians,these are facts, not opinions,but if you don't believe me.....you will have to wait some years for a book with a day to day account of the italian front( weare working at it), or something less for the the italian aces book, due to be published soon: 2000-2001, maybe also in english.
Cheers
Antonio

[Soderbaum]

Antonio
The fact that the Italian Air Force infact did not have an offial victory system during the War and they shortly after the War revised the claims during the War can explain the low overclaims by them. I have seen in the book "Above The War Fronts" that rather many "victories" was preclaimed as unconfirmed in this process.
The Italian shall be honored for this revise process, no other country involved in the War did the same. They did good historical analyze quick and took the consequense of this...
GOOD DONE ITALY
The Austrian seems to have an "easier" victory system in 1915 and 1916 when many Forced landings was confirmed, but in 1917 and 1918 they seemed to use a stricter system for confirmation.
To give historical acceptable proofs of Overclaiming You must compare confirmed claims with the opposite sides loss of aircraft in combat. The problem is that You seldom have complete losses of aircrafts. Some aircrafts reported officialy as lost in crashes had been in an earlier combat. In these cases You must have the combat report to get an answer. There exist many example of these from all sides in the War. Some aircrafts which crashed was also infact quickly rebuilt in the Air depots.
Sometimes losses is not mentioned in squadron War Diaries. The quality of these War Diaries depended on the clerc who wrote them..
Sometimes You can also wonder if the personal involved in the War were aware of what date it was. Misdating is/was a huge problem.
Misdating can infact lead to Underclaiming if You cant find the right circumstances.
But the most important factor is that all countries involved in the War infact officialy "lied" about their losses during the War. They simply forgot to report everything. This behavior can partly be discovered if You have lists of complete aircrafts losses.
But the overclaiming still exists, and a comon reason is that both sides claimed the same aircraft in a dogfight...or that the aircraft infact did not chrash despite all witness who saw it chrash.
There are more explanation if You made a deep investigation..
VBR
Gunnar