Birth of the Richthofen Circus?

[Hal Oele]

Hi folks,

another important information around the Richthofen discussion...

Hal



"The 30th of April was notable for a change in German air fighting tactics. The fighter flights attached to the Arras Corps at Douai (3rd, 4th, 11th, and 33rd) were combined to form one group which could, as occasion demanded, operate as a massed fighting formation. This group, which made its first sweep on the morning of the 30th, was promptly named by us 'Richthofen's Circus'..." WAR IN THE AIR Vol.III, page 368

With nearly every modern Richthofen book you will find this information and because this statement is from "The history of the part played in the war by British air forces" it's a bible, often quoted in conjunction with this famous photograph of Jasta 11 at Roucourt. But is this statement true?
No!

In the seventies, i had the good fortune to tape an interview with an eyewitness:
Ltn. Heinz Geiseler was Jastapilot with the quoted Jasta 33 and he scored on this memorable 30th of April his first victory. Meanwhile his opponents survived as "zur Landung gezwungen" with their FE2d at 0845 near Oppy, his victory was no official. As a "Prussian Cadet", he was wounded as a 17 year old Leutnant, and leader of the 10.Kompanie, I.R.60.
On the attached photograph he is 19 years of age (April 1917)

Some people may be grateful that I don't post the map "Order of Battle", showing the airfields of the Jastas, Schustas and Fliegerabteilungen based around Douai in April 1917.

Yes, I'm in doubt to post here. Is the Aerodrome the right place for serious research or is fancyful history in demand, to win a community?
Is this the trouble with the Web?

Manfred Thiemeyer

[FliegerJG1]

Speaking only for myself, I am always most grateful for any information posted in the interest of advancing our understanding of the events of the air war. I don't care for those who must argue about things and divert the discussions. Along with some others here, I sincerely wish to learn and am open to whatever you desire to share. Thank you for posting the photos! They're wonderful!

FliegerJG1

[GMU]

Thanks Hal and Manfred for this post.

I have said here that I have always believed that the lineup photo was probably taken after von Hoeppner's visit, which I believe was on April 23rd based on Hinsch's letter to his mother, and before MvR took leave on May.

On the v Hoeppner photo one sees 3 tents, but on the lineup photo one can see that a fourth tent was built filling the gap between the building and the tents seen on the v Hoeppner photo. Therefore, I have presumed that the fourth tent was built later that day or after that.

MvR supposedly didn't fly on the 30th, but we see both Le Petite Rouge and the Abendmaschine on the field. Of course, these aircraft could have been flown by other personnel while MvR was away, as it happened with 789/17, but 789/17 doesn't seem to be on the photo, so I presume the photo was taken while Manfred was still there.

Hence, I have always dated this photo between23-30 April. I have said that it was probably taken on the 30th, based on Jones' War in the Air quote, and on the occasion of the combined operations.

So, what is it not correct, the lineup photo at that particular date, the four Jastas operating from Roucourt, or the whole event itself?

This is very interesting! In any case I must rectify my error then.

Now, about the first DIII it is said it is not a Jasta 11 aircraft; it was a foreign one.
Jasta 3, 4, 33 ? Many people came to visit Roucourt. Boehme was there ... ... ... ... .....

This info is great Hal and Manfred, as well as the pictures. I am very sad too that few people seem to follow this up.

The abendmaschine thread was hijacked and killed. The Krefft vs Hinsh thread is dead as well. No one else seems to provide input on the 789/17 thread too. It is frustrating!

I would like to see more participation from other people who know more than I do.

Thanks again.

George

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Hello Manfred;
The photo of Heinz Geiseler of standing next to Alb.D.III, No.1. was this photo taken at Jasta 20 or Jasta 3? I would like your opinion about the color aft of the fuselage cross and the number one on the fuselage.
I, for for one would like to see the Order of Battle list and the map April 1917.
I fully agree with the statement from "War inthe Air", Vol.III, page 368 you reference. The trial grouping in April 1917 of Jasta 3, 4, 11 and 33 was a success and was the foundation for the establishent of Jagdgeschwader Nr.1 on 26 June 1917.
There are some serious researchers here on the Forum, to name a few, Greg Van WynGarden, James Miller, Aaron Weaver and many more, aside from myself.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[FOKKERJ]

Originally Posted by Dan_San_Abbott

Hello Manfred;
The photo of Heinz Geiseler of standing next to Alb.D.III, No.1. was this photo taken at Jasta 20 or Jasta 3? I would like your opinion about the color aft of the fuselage cross and the number one on the fuselage.
I, for for one would like to see the Order of Battle list and the map April 1917.
I fully agree with the statement from "War inthe Air", Vol.III, page 368 you reference. The trial grouping in April 1917 of Jasta 3, 4, 11 and 33 was a success and was the foundation for the establishent of Jagdgeschwader Nr.1 on 26 June 1917.
There are some serious researchers here on the Forum, to name a few, Greg Van WynGarden, James Miller, Aaron Weaver and many more, aside from myself.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

Hi Dan-San,

My first impression was that this is the letter "I" on the fuselage. First thing I did was to look at Ltn. Heinz Geiseler's name to see if there was any connection.... I couldn't find one so I was dumbfounded!
Although I am not sure, tradition with German fighter machines does seem to be capital letters more than Arabic numerals. just a thought.

Best Wishes, Jay

P.S. If it is an "I", maybe it was a shared Albatros D.III.
Maybe the unit markings on this machine are Red(?).
Maybe a Jasta 11 machine (?).
I will be interested to see any information on this from Herr Thiemeyer.

[tcrean7828]

Mates,
Thanks and Greetings Hal Oele and Manfred Thiemeyer for your sharing your info with the rest of us. To me it is interesting to know that a group was formed prior to MvR leading JG-I. I have read so, but mostly in passing as the source info, was not directed upon that subject. Hearing it from you'all seems to make it quite official as opposed to rumor and hearsay. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

I myself, would appreciate any info that you folks think appropriate to further our thinking on these subjects.

Great Photo's by the way.

Was anyone credited for the shootdown?

ttfn

tcrean7828

tom

[VtwinVince]

Manfred, that is a great comparison with the Geiseler photos. Is that a Buecker he is standing next to in old age? It looks like he is wearing his Flugzeugfuehrer and Fliegererinnerungsabzeichen in the second photo, fantastic.

[FOKKERJ]

Greetings Hal Oele and Manfred Thiemeyer,

My intention is not offend the two of you or anyone else with what I am about to say. With that said, let's go.

Dear Manfred,

I am a little slow this morning and am not sure what it is exactly that you are saying here. Please bear with me.

Originally Posted by Hal Oele

Hi folks,

another important information around the Richthofen discussion...

Hal



"The 30th of April was notable for a change in German air fighting tactics. The fighter flights attached to the Arras Corps at Douai (3rd, 4th, 11th, and 33rd) were combined to form one group which could, as occasion demanded, operate as a massed fighting formation. This group, which made its first sweep on the morning of the 30th, was promptly named by us 'Richthofen's Circus'..." WAR IN THE AIR Vol.III, page 368

With nearly every modern Richthofen book you will find this information and because this statement is from "The history of the part played in the war by British air forces" it's a bible, often quoted in conjunction with this famous photograph of Jasta 11 at Roucourt. But is this statement true?
No!

We know that Jasta 3, 4, 11, and 33 were not a permanent Jagdstaffel as was JG.I. Was there an official designation for combined Fighter groups at this time?
I believe that the term "Richthofen's Flying Circus" was indeed conjured up to discribe JG.I and as a compliment or a derogatory description was in the perception of the individual. You can respect your foe even if it is your duty to eliminate them. To this day I believe that the attraction, then as now, was the colorful paint schemes of the individual machines of the Jasta (plural) in contrast to the "Drab" Olive Drab paint schemes of some of the Allies' machines. Also the respect due to any efficient fighting group.
I accept this and don't find it offensive.

Was there ever a "Red Baron" in Deutschland?
Obviously RvM wrote a book titled "Der Rote Flieger". I translate this as "The Red Flyer", Flyer interchangeable with Pilot, if wrong I am open to a correction here.

Originally Posted by Hal Oele

In the seventies, i had the good fortune to tape an interview with an eyewitness:
Ltn. Heinz Geiseler was Jastapilot with the quoted Jasta 33 and he scored on this memorable 30th of April his first victory. Meanwhile his opponents survived as "zur Landung gezwungen" with their FE2d at 0845 near Oppy, his victory was no official. As a "Prussian Cadet", he was wounded as a 17 year old Leutnant, and leader of the 10.Kompanie, I.R.60.
On the attached photograph he is 19 years of age (April 1917)

This is interesting information that I was previously unaware of and I am grateful for you sharing this and the accompanying fotografs. Perhaps some day you could help me with a Jasta Flieger of Jasta 52 that I have too little information on.

Was the F.E.2d's downing awarded credit to anyone else since Ltn. Heinz Geiseler did not recieve credit?

Originally Posted by Hal Oele

Some people may be grateful that I don't post the map "Order of Battle", showing the airfields of the Jastas, Schustas and Fliegerabteilungen based around Douai in April 1917.

I disagree, I think that most people would be grateful for any Maps that you are generous enough to share with us. Especially a Map of "the Jastas, Schustas and Fliegerabteilungen based around Douai in April 1917.".

Originally Posted by Hal Oele

Yes, I'm in doubt to post here. Is the Aerodrome the right place for serious research or is fancyful history in demand, to win a community?
Is this the trouble with the Web?

Manfred Thiemeyer

I believe that you have come to the right place to post this information.
It is unfortunate that there are "Popularity Contest" and the associated egos that come with these items of interest, but I believe that this is part of Human Nature and must be accepted as part of the rich dialogue that makes this possible. With out a community, there would be no one to share this information with.

Originally Posted by Hal Oele

Thanks again for sharing this information and these great fotografs of Ltn. Heinz Geiseler that he might not be forgotten.

Best Wishes, Jay aka FOKKERJ

P.S. Again, I believe that Manfred Thiemeyer should be reinstated as "A Member In Goodstanding" with full priviledges!
I believe that he is one of our best sources and possibly the best source from Germany.

[GMU]

P.S. Again, I believe that Manfred Thiemeyer should be reinstated as "A Member In Goodstanding" with full priviledges!
I believe that he is one of our best sources and possibly the best source from Germany.

I second that.

[StephenLawson]

Originally Posted by GMU

I second that.

Not a question for voting on. We have no votes here.