Forum attic Item # 8

[YavorD]

Hi!
Forgive me for the delay. I would like to ask who was the author and what was the story behind these old notes.

Regards,
Yavor

[crankcase]

I think i have seen this before... It is either Junkers or Dornier designing what amounts to a flying wing. Might it also be related to the long range bomber project targeting New York that was on the drawing board at the end of the war?
crankcase

[Gimlet]

Hi all,
I think depicted are Hugo Junkers' personal notes, showing his most innovative concept of "Dicker Flügel" - as opposed to flat wing profiles. If I can read it correctly, it says "Patent über eine körperliche (statt flächiger .... Gestaltung der Tragflächen..." which translates roughly as Patent on a bulky (instead of flat) wing lay-out.
Not beeing an aviation expert of any sort at all, I still recognised these drawings from a lengthy TV feature on Junkers and his inventions, aired last night on a German television channel. Well, watching telly apparentely can be of use sometimes...
BTW, there is an interesting museum in Dessau on the life and work of the citys most famous entrepreneur and inventor
http://www.technikmuseum-dessau.de/ (sorry, German only)

gimlet

[YavorD]

Gimlet is right.
Professor Hugo Junkers notes dated 3 December 1909.
[from Günter Schmitt, Hugo Junkers und seine Flugzeuge, transpress, Berlin, 1986]
These notes result in a German patent Nr.253788 (1 February 1910), as well as US Patent 1,114,364 (26(?) January 1911).

The idea behind is not given yet.
Hint: Patent descriptions hardly provide good explanation.

Regards,
Yavor

[YavorD]

Hi!

Because this particular attic item failed to attract too much attention, it will be a good idea to move forward. This topic remains open for discussion, of course ...

Dear Gimlet, your turn ... and good time within The Aerodrome, indeed!

Regards,
Yavor

[Varese2002]

Originally Posted by YavorD

Gimlet is right.
Professor Hugo Junkers notes dated 3 December 1909.
[from Günter Schmitt, Hugo Junkers und seine Flugzeuge, transpress, Berlin, 1986]
These notes result in a German patent Nr.253788 (1 February 1910), as well as US Patent 1,114,364 (26(?) January 1911).

The idea behind is not given yet.
Hint: Patent descriptions hardly provide good explanation.

Regards,
Yavor

Hi Yavor, I am late because I just came in, so I could not participate. Interesting sketches of Professor Junkers

I searched the patents and found a marked difference in at least the drawings. US 1114364 was filed on 26 January 1911 and patented on 20 October 1914 (after the start of the Great War).
The German Patentschrift 253788 was much earlier, patented on 1 February 1910.

The American Patent drawings


The drawings of German Patent 253788


I think the basic idea of Junkers already in 1910 was to relieve the engine as much as possible, by making the ratio of buoyancy and resistance as great as possible. A low(er) powered engined could drive an aeroplane with great lifting possibility and low resistance. So he came on the thick flying wing configuration with the people, engine and all aeroplane things (retractable ? undercarriage) within the thick wing.
For 1910 a very revolutionary idea !

Kees

[FOKKERJ]

YavorD and Kees, Thanks for sharing the cartoons [technical drawings]. I could not believe the first time I saw the GOTHA / HORTON Ho. 229, what a hot rod! These JUNKER drawings are definetly ahead of their time. THANK YOU, FOKKERJ

[YavorD]

Hi!

I have a feeling the story being a bit more complex than shown within Patent applications. I have just two pages from the original Junkers notes and my attempt to decipher handwritten text (combined with a poor German language experience) failed. So, i can only speculate about how idea developed in time. Nevertheless, in my humble opinion and almost 100 years hindsight, the US Patent 1114364 (see Figures posted by Varese2002) was a retrograde step in comparison whit the original concept, Figures 10 to 13 in particular. From my point of view today i see two important concepts:

• The size matters. The way to increase range and payload is to go big. In order to go big, the all-metal construction is a necessity.
• The tick airfoil provides plenty of height for stiff cantilever wing design without struts and bracing wires. All fuel, payload, engines, and almost whole crew and passengers compartments can be buried within the wing - blended body-wing design (in todays language) if fuselage not dispensed at all.

During the lifespan of Prof. Hugo Junkers the concept developed into G 38 ...

Regards,
Yavor

[FOKKERJ]

I guess anything will fly if it's going fast enough! Thanks, FOKKERJ

[Varese2002]

Originally Posted by YavorD

Hi!

-- I have just two pages from the original Junkers notes and my attempt to decipher handwritten text (combined with a poor German language experience) failed. ---
Regards,
Yavor

Yavor, you have set yourself a very high target to read the German handwriting which is known as Sütterlin. It was in use till 1940, so you can also find it in hand-written texts on postcards, cards and letters from the Great War.
Extra difficult is the sometimes very poor handwriting, which makes it all but impossible to read the Sütterlin text, so you cannot understand what the text is hinting at.

Historians and archivists with (German) pieces before 1940 have to make a special study of Sütterlin. If you are interested look here.

Kees