Data on early French ace

[Uhlan]

I just got through reading the winter 1964 article in C&C US about the October 12, 1916 raid on the Mauser works in Oberndorf. In this article there is mentioned a French ace by the name of Henri Baron, rank: Adjutant. Can anybody provide details about him? I can't find any reference to this chap in the local Aces register or anywhere else for that matter which is surprising since he supposedly had 13 victories and is described as the "French Immelman".

Thanks in advance...

[TomVrille]

Originally Posted by Uhlan

I just got through reading the winter 1964 article in C&C US about the October 12, 1916 raid on the Mauser works in Oberndorf. In this article there is mentioned a French ace by the name of Henri Baron, rank: Adjutant. Can anybody provide details about him? .... he supposedly had 13 victories and is described as the "French Immelman".

Greetings Uhlan..
The French Air Service War Chronology 1914-1918 by Bailey and Cony lists claims and casualties on a day-by-day basis for the period of the Great War. Like the C&C (US) article you reference, this book shows that Adj Henri Baron, and his bombardier Sgt André Guerineau, were KIA on 'The Oberndorf Raid', the presumed victims of Ltn Otto Kissenberth. The total number of claims shown for Adj Baron up to the date of his last mission is, however, Zero. While it is easy to overlook an entry or two in the War Chronology in the absence of a cross-referenced name index, it is most unlikely that Adj Baron had anything like 13 victories in the air. Note that he served in Escadrille F.123 flying Farman 40s and 42s, hardly the type of mounts apt to produce 'Immelmann-like' results.

The claim that Adj Baron was an 'ace' appears to have been made by an Oblt Kiliani, an observer/gunner with Fl. Abt. 9b who survived the war, and was writing an account of his wartime experiences in 1919. It sounds a bit like another 'mess-hall myth', circulated to make the troops think they had done something really significant.

[Uhlan]

Originally Posted by TomVrille

The claim that Adj Baron was an 'ace' appears to have been made by an Oblt Kiliani, an observer/gunner with Fl. Abt. 9b who survived the war, and was writing an account of his wartime experiences in 1919. It sounds a bit like another 'mess-hall myth', circulated to make the troops think they had done something really significant.

Thanks for that information. I rather figured this was a bit of a fish story when I couldn't find anything on Baron being an ace. An ace with 13 victories isn't about to go completely unrecorded. The funny thing is that most modern accounts of the Oberndorf raid repeat the claim of Baron being an ace ad verbatim.

The reason I asked is that I have been doing some research aimed at identifying individual aircraft involved in the Oberndorf raid and as usual the Germans and British are relatively well covered but the French aircraft are proving difficult. I was kind of hoping that if Baron really was an ace there would be plenty of photos of his aircraft. I suppose I'll have to start looking elsewhere . My only success with the French Oberndorf raiders so far is a good number of photos of Udet's Breguet.

[gilles]

Henri Baron was an ace! I saw it in the newspapers


The word "ace" at that time did not mean a pilot with 5 victories or more. It was used by the press as a synonym for "champion" and it was not officially used by the army (AFAIK not even in WW2 for the french air force).
I don't know where Baron's 13 victories come from. Maybe 13 bombing missions over Germany?

Gilles

[Uhlan]

Originally Posted by gilles

Henri Baron was an ace! I saw it in the newspapers

The word "ace" at that time did not mean a pilot with 5 victories or more. It was used by the press as a synonym for "champion" and it was not officially used by the army (AFAIK not even in WW2 for the french air force).
I don't know where Baron's 13 victories come from. Maybe 13 bombing missions over Germany?

Gilles

The claim of 13 'victories' was made by Oblt Kiliani of FA 9b... well... at least he compared Baron to Immelmann so one would tend to assume that he meant 13 air-to-air victories. In the C&C article Kiliani's references to Baron appear to have been copied ad verbatim from Kiliani's memoirs written in 1919. Of course the text may have lost something in the translation to English and I have no access to the original German text. If, as you suggest, Kiliani really mistook the fact that Baron had completed 13 long-range bombing missions for 13 air-to-air victories that would explain where the claim of Baron being an 'Ace' originated. Of course that is merely conjecture.

Is there anything written about this guy? I'd really like to find a picture of his Farman or any other aircraft of the Farman or Caudron squadrons that raided Oberndorf.

[Taz]

Uhlan- There are lots of photos of Obendorf raiders from German sources coming up on E-Bay and to be found in German photo albums. A cannon Voisin photo was just auctioned recently. The Voisins, Breguets and Breguet-Michelins were scattered all over Germany and France and quite a few came down intact. I can dig up at least one, maybe two, if you are interested. My French friends managed to run down the details for me. The whole raid reminds me of the early B-17 raids over Germany. A running fight all the way in and all the way out, but at 70 mph instead of 200 mph.

Taz
Terry Phillips

[Uhlan]

Originally Posted by Taz

Uhlan- There are lots of photos of Obendorf raiders from German sources coming up on E-Bay and to be found in German photo albums. A cannon Voisin photo was just auctioned recently. The Voisins, Breguets and Breguet-Michelins were scattered all over Germany and France and quite a few came down intact. I can dig up at least one, maybe two, if you are interested. My French friends managed to run down the details for me. The whole raid reminds me of the early B-17 raids over Germany. A running fight all the way in and all the way out, but at 70 mph instead of 200 mph.

Taz
Terry Phillips

That would be nice. I already have found a few good photos of Udet's Breguet in an issue of Propellerblatt and I am waiting or an answer on some more back issues of that publication. I'm especially interested in Farmans and Caudrons who participated in the Oberndorf raid but I won't say no to the Breguets either. I'd paticulary like a good picture of a Farman 40. If you could at least point me in the direction of publications where pictures of these aircraft have been published I'd be greatful.