Naval Nieuports

Shredward · 8 February 2004, 04:35 PM

Hello All,
My usual sources do not list squadron, or any, markings as applied to Nieuports (all breeds) for Naval 1,3, 8, 9, and 10. Does anyone have a description, or photos to point to?
Hope you can help,
shredward

MikeW · 9 February 2004, 10:25 AM

Shredward,

most of them were either bog standard cdl with that darker tape along the edges of the fuselage (which I have seen described as French Blue), or PC10. Cockades were initially the original red and white and sometimes grey style, later becoming the more familiar blue/white/red.

There were exceptions of course, not squadron, but personal markings. Naval 3 had "Binky" which was I believe in green and brown camouflage though to be quite honest, I can't see it myself on the copy that I have. A few carried personal names, none of which I can think of at the moment.

Naval 1 never flew Nieuports, Naval 10 only had a handful of 2-seaters, you've forgotten 1 Wing and 2 Wing which used vast numbers of Nieuports, and the major omission is Naval 6 which had both silver and just before they converted to camels, PC10 painted machines. The Naval 6 machines were the 17Bis, and they did carry a squadron marking of a large red (or black) numeral below the cockpit, no fuselage cockade, and one machine had a wide red band around the fuselage.

Naval 6 will be the subject of the next book, but don't hold your breath!

Mike

Shredward · 9 February 2004, 11:03 AM

Thanks Mike,
So it sounds like they were essentially anonymous, which would be why I haven't been able to find references to squadron markings? I've been waiting ever so patiently for any of your Naval books....please keep us posted!!!!
regards,
shredward

MikeW · 9 February 2004, 01:48 PM

Shredward,

just finished (literally 30 minutes ago) proof reading the Galley proofs of the Naval 10 book.

They are supposed to be back with Schiffers by Friday, then they design the layout and after that the colour proofs. It's a long painful process.

It certainly gives you time to work on another book whilst the first one is with the publisher.

My impression after looking at the galley proofs is that the book is going to be a lot bigger than I originally thought, even allowing for 100 photographs and 30 or so of Mark Miller's magnificent colour profiles - I'm just hoping that they are not going to make it too expensive.

Mike

Shredward · 9 February 2004, 02:07 PM

Wonderful,
I have always had a particular interest in Naval 10, I'm sure you can guess why. Really looking forward to your book.
regards,
shredward

wingstrutdotcom · 9 February 2004, 08:17 PM

With respect to Naval 6 and the 17bis there were at least two machines that did not have numerals.

One as stated had a red band mid fuselage, this being N3204. the only other markings as with all 17 bis were there assigned serial # just forward of the elevator. One profile shown in the Squadron Signals Nieuport edition of the single band machine showed it with a red cowel which I believe is incorrect. A second photo of the machine I have seen from the front clearly shows no red cowl. It is also suspect that it did not actually have red wheel covers. In some scenes of the field of Naval 6 it can be seen that their was another machine which had 2 red bands mid fuselage. Unfortunatly I have not been able to identify the serial # for this machine.

With respect to some earlier Nie 11's assigned to Naval units there have only been personal markings seen. Some did not have names but other markings.

You may find some info in a few months on these with some color work done by me.

MikeW · 10 February 2004, 12:32 PM

OK, just to clarify the naval 6 thing, when the 17Bis carried squadron markings, it was the numerals. There was a period at the begining of the planes' service when they carried no squadron marking, and also at the end, early June 17 when they didn't bother painting them with numerals.

Regarding N3204, whilst it carried the red band, I would say from the photographs in my collection, that the cowl and wheel covers were blue, as indeed were a number of the machines, not all, just some of them, more probably a flight marking than a squadron marking.

I originally thought that the machine with 2 bands was just a fancy "11", but the marking is just too far back from the cockpit for this to be correct - I live in hope of discovering the serial number of this one!

To throw another spanner in the works, some of the PC10 painted machines had a fuselage cockade, and even worse, the serial number was in the wrong place! The PC10 machines were build by the British Nieuport Co., wheras the silver machines (to quote Hawkwind - there, I'm just an old acid rocker) all came from France.

Mike

MikeW · 10 February 2004, 12:41 PM

I'm sorry, I should also have said that some of Naval 6's Nieuports also had red cowls and wheel covers - just not the one with the red band round the fuselage.

Mike

Cigogne · 10 February 2004, 05:05 PM

MikeW,

The CDL Naval Nieuports would've applied to Nieuport 10s, 11s, or 12s, right? The Type 16s, 17s, 17bis, etc. would've been silver doped or PC-10 painted, or?

MikeW · 11 February 2004, 12:04 AM

Cigogne,

well, in general yes, but not always! That green and brown Naval 3 Nieuport was a 17 (if memory serves).

Another discrepancy - I have just remembered another squadron identifcation - in 1916, A Squadron 1 Wing (the precurser of Naval 1) used a motly selection of Nieuport scouts (including 11s), these were PC10, with large white Roman Numerals on the fuselage side in place of the cockade, strangely, many did not carry wing cocades either.

Mike