|
Bréguet's Aircraft ID Challenge #762
This one has a colorful history.
http://members.cox.net/pdbid/challenge762-01.jpg Enjoy & good luck! The scores at the start of Challenge #762 are: 133.90 Varese2002 ¤¤ 96.90 Dave_Kent ¤ 84.20 Rbailey ¤ 37.40 richard B ¤ 33.30 Cruze ¤ 26.80 Aquilius ¤ 25.30 Lodzermensch ¤ 22.20 YavorD 21.35 Froggy 16.90 Flamingo 13.80 Rod Filan 10.45 GregE 10.00 Breguet 09.70 Dan-San 09.50 matte_kudasai 08.40 JohnMacG 08.30 Patrick 07.70 EdStevens 07.60 trp81 07.10 Colin A. Owers 07.25 Ermeio 06.70 Ampovandak 06.70 Berman 06.10 joegertler 06.00 Eric Goedkoop 05.90 Doc 05.70 AROTH 05.70 FOKKERJ Feuchtwanger 05.60 ercoupepilot 05.30 Crimso 05.30 Der Grüne Flieger 05.20 Maze 05.20 Gilles 05.10 bshatzer 05.00 Tom L 05.00 sobrien ..........................have to wait 12 hours 04.70 dpolglaze........................ may start immediately 04.40 Ross Moorhouse 04.30 edmondthieffry 04.20 Rufe 04.00 greenknight 03.90 Brad 03.00 Catfish 03.00 John McKenzie 03.00 SCMc 02.50 Gregoire 02.50 HoHun 02.50 Rexee 02.30 ckingh5 02.10 Crankcase 02.00 austin08 02.00 Rickenbaron 01.70 Kilian 01.60 airplane176 01.60 sergio_vitalio 01.50 ’14-‘18aviationcollector 01.50 Albatros_Ace 01.30 Cigogne 01.20 Ransom E. Olds 01.00 Cliff 01.00 cubsfan4life 01.00 gregorydquist 01.00 Luf-Rick 01.00 Mike Westorp 01.00 paolomiana 01.00 Peter Zambori 01.00 rammjaeger 01.00 SL DIII 01.00 Tripehound 00.90 Stig Jarlevik 00.80 Machinbird 00.80 Mad Mac 00.80 tbstreet 00.80 toxisch 00.60 Sreiko 00.50 Martin Irvine 00.40 Vilkata 00.30 albapfalzd30 00.30 Miroslav Pokorny 00.30 Nieuport14 00.20 Paul_J._Fisher Previous Challenges can be seen here: Aeroplanes 1914 - 1918* -* Breguet's Aircraft Challenge* -- The Rules of the Challenge are: -The thread title must be "Bréguet's aircraft ID challenge #......" -The score board, link and rules must be copied to the beginning of each thread, so that we know where we are. The score board and the correct answer to the challenge must also be placed at end of each thread. -The completed aircraft must have been either; designed, built or have left the ground during the '14-'18 period and be identifiable by the poster. -The photo must show the whole aircraft - from whatever angle, or at least 2 views of a 3 view drawing (photo by preference). -Challenges which depict a machine already earlier presented are disqualified (always check the list at Aeroplanes 1914 - 1918* -* Breguet's -Aircraft Challenge* -- when in doubt !). -If there is any doubt as to the eligibility of an aircraft for the challenge details should be PM'd to Breguet BEFORE the aircraft is submitted. -Once someone has got 5 correct answers under their belt they become an ACE. Once they become an ACE they must wait 12hrs after the posting of the new challenge before they can post an answer. -To be eligible for correct ID an answer must include at least one characteristic of the aircraft that helped in its identification. -The first person to ID the challenge correctly gets to post the next challenge. If this can not be done for any reason Breguet himself will post the next challenge. -If an ace gives the correct answer too early, the challenge is over, he gets no point but has to post the next one. In lieu of the fact that the "novices" have in effect been "cheated" of their "exclusive" time that next post should be a relatively easy one. Anyone repeating the correct answer at the right time gets neither a point nor the right to post the next challenge. -The final arbiter in relation to questions about the rules is BREGUET |
Patrick is checking this one.
Dave |
Redesigned enough to be different!
|
So we continue with this photo, the 12-hour mark is still measured from the first post. :)
You can cinch this one by naming the designer, the manufacturer, and telling how you ID'd it. Resume your search right . . . now! :book: |
ľ rear view of the 4 engined SSW Forssmam “R”.
|
Well, Dave is obviously right with the Siemens-Schuckert Forsman Giant or R-type that did not got a roman numbering. But he missed rule #8.
I haven't seen a rear-view so far, but this clumsy fuselage and the 4 four tractor engines are a clear hint, including the (occupied) gunner pulpit. But the plane here is not in the layout Villehad Henrik Forssman had initially designed it. The early wing structure proved to be too weak and 6 additional struts had to placed either side. Then Forssman redesigned the wings and cause the plane was exceptional tail-heavy he added a gunner gondola at the front which one can make out at the front, where a fellow is looking over the rim. Also the engines got a streamlined covering that they did not had before. Just the plane (maybe thankfully:blush:) did not fly - mainly because the engine power was too weak and Forssman lost his job with Siemens. Later with Harold Wolff and the Steffen Brothers further changes were made including more powerful engines installed and the aircraft finally flew. I believe only twice. After it passed it's acceptance test the wings broke into pieces while the engines were test-running on the ground... Does someone know if it ever got an official registration since it was purchased by the army? :unsure: Cheers :apilot: Aquilius |
Hi, Aquilius!
My only source about this machine is The German Giants : The German R-Planes 1914-1918 (3rd edition) by Haddow and Grosz. Hardly anything new to You. regards, Yavor |
Dave Kent scores with his identification of the Siemens-Schuckert Forssman "R" plane. Here's the original un-retouched photo from Haddow & Grosz's The German Giants:
http://members.cox.net/pdbid/challenge762-02.jpg Dave also pointed out to me that this plane appeared earlier in Challenge #56. But there were so many major modifications made between the early version shown here in #762, and the one shown in #56, that the two photos show what amount to two different models of the same plane. Quote:
Unfortunately, I have to agree with Aquilius that Rule 8 was overlooked so I can't award Dave the full point. Dave gets 0.8 point and the next Challenge for both the correct ID and noting that this plane appeared earlier in #56, and Aquilius gets 0.2 point for expanding on Dave's ID and providing some additional details. The scoreboard after #762 133.90 Varese2002 ¤¤ 97.70 Dave_Kent ¤ 84.20 Rbailey ¤ 37.40 richard B ¤ 33.30 Cruze ¤ 27.00 Aquilius ¤ 25.30 Lodzermensch ¤ 22.20 YavorD 21.35 Froggy 16.90 Flamingo 13.80 Rod Filan 10.45 GregE 10.00 Breguet 09.70 Dan-San 09.50 matte_kudasai 08.40 JohnMacG 08.30 Patrick 07.70 EdStevens 07.60 trp81 07.10 Colin A. Owers 07.25 Ermeio 06.70 Ampovandak 06.70 Berman 06.10 joegertler 06.00 Eric Goedkoop 05.90 Doc 05.70 AROTH 05.70 FOKKERJ Feuchtwanger 05.60 ercoupepilot 05.30 Crimso 05.30 Der Grüne Flieger 05.20 Maze 05.20 Gilles 05.10 bshatzer 05.00 Tom L 05.00 sobrien ..........................have to wait 12 hours 04.70 dpolglaze........................ may start immediately 04.40 Ross Moorhouse 04.30 edmondthieffry 04.20 Rufe 04.00 greenknight 03.90 Brad 03.00 Catfish 03.00 John McKenzie 03.00 SCMc 02.50 Gregoire 02.50 HoHun 02.50 Rexee 02.30 ckingh5 02.10 Crankcase 02.00 austin08 02.00 Rickenbaron 01.70 Kilian 01.60 airplane176 01.60 sergio_vitalio 01.50 ’14-‘18aviationcollector 01.50 Albatros_Ace 01.30 Cigogne 01.20 Ransom E. Olds 01.00 Cliff 01.00 cubsfan4life 01.00 gregorydquist 01.00 Luf-Rick 01.00 Mike Westorp 01.00 paolomiana 01.00 Peter Zambori 01.00 rammjaeger 01.00 SL DIII 01.00 Tripehound 00.90 Stig Jarlevik 00.80 Machinbird 00.80 Mad Mac 00.80 tbstreet 00.80 toxisch 00.60 Sreiko 00.50 Martin Irvine 00.40 Vilkata 00.30 albapfalzd30 00.30 Miroslav Pokorny 00.30 Nieuport14 00.20 Paul_J._Fisher |
Thanks Yavor & Patrick for you thoughts about my question.
Actually the Haddow & Grosz is not yet part of my library. :blush: The Forssman-Wolff-Steffen Giant definetely had not got a R-class serial. But it's not true that the R-class hadn't existed when that plane was taken over. Bruno Steffen made the acceptance flight in April 1916 and after that the machine was payed by the army. And the first R-serials were given at the end of 1915 already. The further Steffen designed Siemens-Schuckert Giants R.I to R.VII (first G.31-37/15) all were re-designated R.1-7/15 before the army purchased their first VGO. Dates are missing, but I know about the VGO II, that was taken over in Oktober 1915 with serial R.9/15. (R.8/15 was Linke-Hofmann R.I) I do have very little facts only about the Siemens-Schuckert Giants, but I know from the notes of Alexander Baumann, the VGO & Staaken designer, that these early giants were not ordered beforehand like other aircraft. They all had to pass a test before they were payed. And Baumann was very angry when Siemens miscalculated their designes to less than half the price that VGO/Zeppelin-Staaken could do. Siemens noticed that their offers would not cover half of their costs, but they hold the price since they told, they can afford it. It's just I don't believe the machine got a B-class serial like the first Gotha in 1914, while the design started in 1914. But a G-serial might be possible as the engines were not serviciable in-flight - and there are a some gaps in my serial lists. And there is one questionable entry, the first of 1916: G.100/16 Siemens-Schuckert G.II :unsure:Wasn't the G.II before re-designated R.II in 1915? :huh: Or had the army listed all almost similar types R.I to R.VII as G.I previously. This could explain why the 1918-type SSW L.I is listed as G.III. Would be great if you could have a look again. Cheers :apilot: Aquilius |
Hi Aquilius, everything that I have about this plane comes from the The German Giants.
The very first page of this book is titled What is an R-Plane? From this -- Quote:
Quote:
The section about the Forssman R does not say anything about how the project was initiated; there is no mention of a formal order or contract from the Army to SSW to construct it. It seems likely that Forssman promoted it himself to SSW management based on his observations of Sikorsky's four-engined aircraft when he worked in Russia in 1910-12. It may never have received an Army identifier in the early stages, being a private venture of SSW. As you note, no payment was made by the Army until the plane had passed acceptance testing, so having a formal identifier at this early stage of development really meant nothing. I suppose that without a firm order, a plane could pass the acceptance tests and still not be purchased for service use, so SSW was taking a risk in funding the project. Regarding the re-designation from "G" to "R" -- Quote:
Quote:
Hope that helps. :) |
| All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:42 PM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2026, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.