MvR's Fokker D.VII
 

This is from a closed thread from 1998-1999 from Dave watts. Dave stated that :

"I found this interesting passage on page 285 of "Fokker the Creative Years", by A.R. Weyl.
"The Fok. D.VII at the front
The first example of the Fok. D.VII to go to the front went to Manfred von Richthofen's unit, Jagdgeschwader I, early in April 1918. Von Richthofen was seen flying it when visiting neighbouring aerodromes. Against the enemy, however, he flew his Fok. Dr.I until his death on April 21."
It would be interesting to know what Weyl's source was. I will have to check with Pete Grosz, since he now owns Weyl's archives. I know that Pete has not only cast doubts over some of Weyl's statements in the book, but has proved some to be false."

Any news to add?

i'm sure some people on here could add more detail either way,but i would guess that he only flew the prototype along with other aces at the "fighter trials".

paul

Apparently there were DVIIs at the front in April 1918, actually as early as March according to some sources, including the Squadron/Signal DVII in action book, but as far as I'm aware MVR didn't fly the thing much after his initial flights at the competition where it won.

It seems hard to imagine MVR not wanting to give it a whirl if it arrived at his airfield, but there's a big difference between 'arriving' and being 'ready to go into combat', or even ready for a quick jaunt to a neighbouring airfield. Don't forget the DVII was prone to fires caused by the engine heat igniting incendiary rounds in the magazine until the engine cowling louvres were enlarged to improve cooling.

The DVII was designed to be easily transportable by train amongst other things, so it could well have been 'at the front', but still in packing cases, although there certainly are pics of it in one piece, on the flight line with the engine running in April, and unless the Germans had a very early copy of Adobe Photoshop, that is beyond doubt.

We do know MVR was quite keen on the type, after all, he had pitched in some design suggestions for it, so if it had been really ready to go, there's seems no reason why he should not have used it in combat, and of course we know he did not. It was faster than his Dr1, and MVR is on record as saying that the important thing with fighter planes is that they should be speedy. That alone suggests it wasn't good to go when MVR was around. Weyl's figures have only 19 completed DVIIs at the front by the end of April, by which time, MVR was pushing up poppies.

A fair bit of speculation there of course, but if a few sources for such claims could be found and thoroughly confirmed it would surely be interesting.

Al

Since I research the Dr.I I learn more about the D.VII because of the Fokker Acceptance sheets, Production Dispatched sheets and the fact that May 20 1918 was date the GJ1 received the first D.VII's to replace the Dr.I's.

I have not found anything that shows that there were any D.VII's delivered earlier them May 20th.

Yes, the April Fokker acceptance reports shows the D.VII's were being accepted in good numbers. From w/n's and production's numbers in the April report indicates only a few would have been accepted in March (I thick it was less then 20) but we don't have March's Fokker factory documents to pin-point down the exact number.

I believe that the Idfleg so some reason held back the actual Delivery's of the D.VII"s until May and not sooner, possibly to get build the inventory before being ship. But for any reason I don't believe that there were any at the front before May. Maybe Mr. Greg could shed some light on this and I can ask Dave Watts to see what he has.

Lloyd...

No D.VII for MvR...
 

I don't believe Squadron Signal's booklet or Nowarra's booklet are accurate regarding this speculation...

Was MvR on leave during the fighter trial? I forgot the date but I think it was during January.

Is there anything on who flew the Fokker's in the 1st. fighter trials?

Lloyd...

I'm pretty sure I've seen a photo of MvR in a D.VII at the Jan '18 trials sitting in the cockpit of a D.VII. Of course I can't find it now.

I found this on acepilots.com searching for the photo.

"By January 1918 the DR.I triplane was becoming dated. In aviation's rapidly evolving early days of WWI, advances in fighter plane design and powerplant came so rapidly that an aircraft's period of air supremacy was measured in months, not years. (From the perspective of the 21st Century, when everything technological changes so rapidly, it's counter-intuitive to think that anything, especially something high tech, like military aircraft, changed more rapidly then than now. But it's so. The airframes of modern airplanes have essentially been optimized and the avionics and weapons are so complex that they require years of development and testing.) The 160 horsepower Mercedes D.III in-line engine powered several new models tested at Adlershof that January, among them the Fokker D.VII prototype. Reinhold Platz, Fokker's chief designer, largely created the D.VII, while Anthony Fokker tested the aircraft, guided critical improvements, and marketed the airplane to Germany's military. Fokker's egotistical personality led him to minimize Platz' important contributions. In his aiutobiography he did not even mention Platz by name.

During the January tests, Manfred von Richthofen tested the new airplane. While delighted with its maneuverability, he found it a little unstable, especially in a dive. To improve stability, Fokker lengthened the fuselage and added a vertical rudder fin, among other changes. The result was easy to fly, maneuverable, and safe. The Red Baron endorsed it wholeheartedly. The Adlershof trials showed Fokker at his best, quickly modifying the plane to meet requirements, charming the German aces, and (most importantly) delivering a fighter that offered good, all-around perfomance.

So taken were the pilots with the new Fokker biplane that the Kogenluft (Kommandierenden General der Luftstreitkräfte) ordered 900, with 300 to be built at Fokker's Schwerin factory and 600 under license at Albatros factories in Johannisthal (Albatros-Werke G.m.b.H.) and Schneidemühl (Osdeutsche Albatros Werke). Fokker had not prepared any construction blueprints; the aircraft had been built from jigs and assembly sketches. So Albatros had to make its own drawings based on a finished airplane. The resulting airplanes inevitably differed in small ways. Surprisingly, the Albatros machines, designated Fokker (Alb) and Fokker (OAW), were felt to be of higher quality than those made by Fokker itself..

Manfred von Richthofen, a great influence on German fighter plane development, looked forward anxiously to the D VII, writing Kogenluft on April 2, 1918:

"When can I expect to receive the [new] Fokker biplanes with the high compression engines? The superiority of British single-seat and reconnaissance aircraft makes it even more perceptibly unpleasant here. Their single-seaters fight by coming over at high altitudes and staying there. We cannot even shoot at them. Speed is the most important factor. We could shoot down five to ten times as many if we were faster. ... Please give me news soon about when we can count on the new machines."

Of course, Richthofen never flew the new machine, as he was killed on April 21st."

No Manfred in this shot, but Jim Miller sent me a picture of the prototype that MvR flew. You can see the shorter fuselage and lack of a vertical stabilizer compared to the production airplane. Manfred observed that the prototype was unstable at high speed, particularly in a dive. Those mods were a result of his input.

http://www.backusstudio.com/aerodrome/1074_V.jpg

Jim and I have talked at length about Manfred and the D.VII and whether he would have survived the war if he had just lasted a few more weeks. The sub 100 mph Dr.1 was sorely outclassed by April 1918. All speculation of course but fun to think about. My observation was that being more of a tactician and marksman than aeronautics proponent, MvR would have been great in the D V.II.

This is the modified version of it at the fighter trials after it had been tweaked, which MVR also flew. It being the one that apparently impressed him:

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j1...odifiedV11.jpg

Al

I've never seen that shot before. Man, that first attempt at a vertical stabilizer design was ugly, wasn't it? I'm glad that Platz worked on it a bit longer before they went into production. Fascinating to see how the basically carried over Dr.1 rudder evolved into this and then into the final D.VII design.