Immelmann shoots down Courtney & Guest
 

Hi Forum,

I have seen in two different books how Max Immelmann apparently shot down the following chaps:
21-Oct-15 Sgt F Courtney (Wia) + Sgt G Thornton (Wia) in Morane L 5034
and
14-Dec-1915 Lt O. Guest (Wia) + Lt A. Bell-Irving (Wia) in BE2c 2060.

He is not credited with either of these Fokker kills. So, who did get these chaps?

Also, Oscar Guest was shot five times in the head and survived (again, apparently).
Thanks in advance.
Matt.

Hello Matt

As Courtney and Thornton NOT were shot down (their a/c returned ok according to my notes) they could "impossible" be a victor for any German pilots or ground-fire etc....
The German victory system demanded that the enemy AIRCRAFT become a complete loss for the enemy...the German Heeresberichte also did not make any claim in their reports for this day...

As for 14 Dec 1915, The Germans reported 4 e/a brought down. I have only notes for two of these. BUT Guest and A Duncan Bell-Irving was brought near Ypres (Flanders) which is very unlikely an area where Immelmann was fighting this day...

Bad things are happening when people will change the history....recently I saw the poor Webmaster of this otherwise good site give Immelmann two further victories for which he NOT was given confirmation...I dont knew how to stop such blunders... :p

:rolleyes:
Gunnar

To disagree "slightly" with Gunnar, I show Immelmann with a not confirmed on 21Oct15, a Morane. This could easily be the crew of Courtney and Thornton. However, it is not confirmed. As far as 14Dec15 goes, I totally agree with Gunnar. Furthermore Immelmann made no claims this day, confirmed or not confirmed, as far as I know. FWIW. R.

Thanks Gunnar and Rick.

According to his autobiography 'The Eighth Sea' Courtney just managed to cross the lines with a dead engine and wounded leg before crashing.
He was taken to a field hospital and told the next day that the German Communique said that the victor was Max Immelmann (although the name didn't mean anything to him at the time).

George Thornton survived with a few cuts and bruises.
I'm still surprised that he wasn't awarded this victory, given that there was a good chance Immelmann knew that they were going to crash.
Boelcke, I think was awarded a similar victory over Lt Hemming & Capt Erskine in January 1916.

Matt.

I was already called to the evening meal but here a short note from Immelmann:

"Am 21. Oktober hatte ich wieder einen Luftkampf mit einem französischen Eindecker, ich zwang ihn zum Runtergehen und er stürzte dann ab, leider auf eigenes Gebiet."

This "French monoplane" could be the (according to Henshaw) Morane L of Courtney/Thornton. Henshaw reports both men WIA/DOW. Britons reported a Fokker with deflector blades as responsible for the British loss.

Hello again

Interesting Matt that Courtney himself in his autobiography mentioned that their a/c crashed, as according to TSTB (Trenshaw) the aircraft was not reported damaged (not even mentioned to have force landed).
When was Courtneys book written...?....is the text taken directly from an original diary...?

As I mentioned the German War communique (Heeresbericht) does not mentioned any claim for Immelmann (or anyone else) this day...so it is obvious that Courtney "lied" regarding this part... :D

However, Immelmann was probably involved in the fight but that is a long way from that to an official victory claim...

:rolleyes:
Gunnar

On a side note, the Bell-Irvings, a local family, contributed a large number of officers to the war effort, not a few of whom became aviators.

Hi All,

this line "er stürzte dann ab, leider auf eigenes Gebiet" (he crashed but sadly on own ground) in my last post indicates that Immelmann did not report a claim or did not get confirmation for a claim because the enemy aircraft crashed on the other side of the lines - possibly without any German witnesses.

Therefore the Heeresbericht did not report any victory as Gunnar said - different to Courtneys claim.

VBR
Rammjaeger

'....Then Portal said I would doubtless like to know the identity of my not-quite executioner; he showed me a translation of the morning's official German communique, which indicated that I had been shot down by a "Lieut. Max Inglemann".... (note spelling).

From The Eighth Sea.

It was the day after Courtneys' fight, and he was in hospital at the time.

Just because it is written, doesn't make it so ! ;)

Regards
Matt.

Hello again

Regarding Matts second question, who got Guest and Bell-Irving on 14 Dec 15, this question is still un-answered... :(

Anyone who have any clue...?...for example gives the so called "Ferko" list any hints...?

:huh:
Gunnar